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Philosophical Forum
..Reply.. Forum 114 Gary Sep 22 at 21:43

re: post-13 We also watched 5 or 6 hours, whatever it was. It was history we will never see the likes of again.  Lambeth Conference better buckle down and stick to their guns on what marriage means to a true Christian.



..Reply.. Forum 113 Lou Sep 20 at 08:04

So did I, all 6 hours. Yes,  Canada did play an important role and had an even more important role at the Lambeth Conference.

..Reply.. Forum 112 Chad Sep 19 at 20:51

I watched the Queen's public funeral. That was quite the affair. Canada played an important role in the ceremonies. That marks the end of an era. Long live the King.

..Reply.. Forum 111 Chad Sep 13 at 11:02

re: post-10  The Queen, especially in her official capacity, lived by a strict code of conduct and defined her role in the light of strong Christian principles. When she was not on duty you might find her at the track betting a few quid on the ponies. To me, that shows that she was truly enlightened. The Queen's mother drank many of her associates under the table yet she never tarnished the the Crown or her daughter's role. The Queen's role has been difficult at times but she has always tried to protect the integrity of the Crown especially when other royals, politicians, and the public, were undermining her efforts. Charles is now my 3rd reigning monarch. My hope is, that he is able to be disciplined enough to rise to the same level of conduct that his mother held.

..Reply.. Forum 110 Lou Sep 11 at 14:17
Her life was a response to the question: "How does an enlightened person think, talk, and act.".


..Reply.. Forum 19 Chad Aug 10 at 08:38

Rupert says things that are in line with my thoughts regarding consciousness and the universe. If I understand him correctly, they are one and the same. That becomes more obvious as we take time to meditate with that in mind. We are not separate from it. 

..Reply.. Forum 18 Lou Aug 01 at 08:40

Rupert reads from his new book, You Are the Happiness You Seek.

That book might be of interest to you.

..Reply.. Forum 17 Lou Jul 13 at 11:08

We have been saying something like this. Me means God

..Reply.. Forum 16 Chad Jul 08 at 11:09

I agree with this quote from the Perennial Philosophy. We know what we are doing is wrong. Now we know why it is wrong and where it went wrong. That is a big first step in making changes. 

..Reply.. Forum 15 Lou Jul 05 at 08:28

In place of mumbo-jumbo at the bottom and of the immanent and transcendent Godhead at the top, it sets up, as objects of admiration, faith and worship, a pantheon of strictly human ideas and ideals. The many varieties of higher idolatry may be classed under three main heads: technological, political and moral.    

Huxley, Aldous. The Perennial Philosophy (p. 251). Harper Perennial. Kindle Edition. 

I understand him as saying that we worship money, wealth, ideas, and even the Bible instead of using them as resources for the worship of God. 

..Reply.. Forum 14 Chad Jul 01 at 00:17

The Idolatry Chapter has the answers to my concerns. I'll check it out. Practice the 3Rs but don't waste food or water in the first place. That is good advice. We can't do anything about being white privileged men. We can still pretend we care about others. Just kidding. I'll be going to the cottage tomorrow. I'll be back next Wednesday. That's the plan anyway.


..Reply.. Forum 13 Lou Jun 30 at 15:14

Christ was done away with for going too far, Gandhi for not going far enough. The Idolatry chapter addresses the concern you have in your post. The worship of images is frowned upon these days but the gods of consumerism have long taken over in Christianity.

There would not be an environmental problem if everyone would buy only what they really need, use ( no leftover where food is concerned ), and then reuse or recycle.

..Reply.. Forum 12 Chad Jun 30 at 14:23

Gandhi like Christ died for his convictions. We are cowards and capitulators of the status quo by contrast. I think it comes from comfortable complacency and being unconscious of our white male privilege. There is no reason, at least none that we are conscious of, to peacefully protest and risk the ultimate sacrifice as they did. We have been oppressors and exploiters for so long that our status seems natural and more importantly deserved. The smallest inconvenience causes us to whine incessantly. We really are conveniently blind to inconvenient truths. We are mostly unaware of the daily efforts and sacrifices made so we can have our life of relative luxury and almost effortless convenience. We know but we readily forget that it isn't like this in the rest of the world. It will all be gone in an instant if we are not careful, viligant, fair, and generous. That might be way too much to contemplate though.

I admit I am a hypocrite and couch-sitting complainer. 


Post a new topic
..Reply.. Forum 2358 Gary Sep 23 at 08:13

re: post-2357 Is that 2nd or 3rd base? 

..Reply.. Forum 2357 Chad Sep 13 at 12:50

re: post-2356 Lou, you are not the only one that tells me I'm off base. Like I said it is just How we are brought up and see the world and therefore consider our spirituality. I think we agree on a lot of things. That wasn't my point. I was attempting to show I was not above criticim from you or anyone else. I try to embrace it. I feel I'm getting better at seeing the other's perspective. 

..Reply.. Forum 2356 Lou Sep 13 at 12:34

re: post-2355 As I pointed out before posting a link on the stalest panel on the Quotes page is how to open any type of study.

..Reply.. Forum 2355 Lou Sep 13 at 12:23

re: post-2354 If I am the one that you feel has told you that you are reading the Bible in an appropriate manner ( I assume you meant inappropriate ) I should point out that analysis was inappropriate where inspirational sharing was expected.
The Bible can be read analytically, to confirm what we already believe( we seldom realize that we are doing it ), or for inspiration ( being open to how the passage is relevant to the present situation ). That is, in addition, to literally vs. metaphorically.

Let's read Quotes-4 with the intention of sharing how we understand Luke 14:26 and how we feel about it.

..Reply.. Forum 2354 Chad Sep 13 at 10:32

re: post-2352  We all come from unique backgrounds so how we make sense of the Bible will be different. Our personal experience and exposure to different ideologies will influence how we discern the content. We can not objectively read the Bible as an uninfluenced and unbiased individual. We project onto the Bible our external influences and own previously established beliefs, perceptions, and biases. I am cautious when I feel God is telling me what I want to hear and or is in sync with my thoughts and beliefs.  

It doesn't surprise me nor bother me much  when I am often told that I'm reading the Bible in an appropriate manner. 

..Reply.. Forum 2353 Lou Sep 12 at 13:25

re: post-2352 Assuming we read the Bible to help keep us on track to salvation, the only criteria should be how helpful the way we read the Bible is toward that end. And we should refrain from passing judgment on how others read the Bible.

..Reply.. Forum 2352 Gary Sep 12 at 11:24

re: post 2351 As far as answering Chad I think as individuals we should all read the Bible in our own way, discern what God is telling us and forget about denominations. As per Anglican's, I don't think you are the only one in our men's circle. As for me I am more Baptist with a touch of SDA thrown in.

..Reply.. Forum 2351 Lou Sep 12 at 08:29

re: post-2350 As far as I know, I am the only Anglican in our men's group.
My post-2347 was a response to Chad's question about whether the church we grew up in influences the way we read the Bible. Being an Anglican ( by choice after careful study as opposed to growing up as an Anglican ) how we read the Bible is the only group I have the vaguest idea about, even then all I am saying is that some do and some don't tend to not read the Bible literally
I have no qualifications to judge whether Catholics are interested in reading the Bible or not and how they read it. Neither am I qualified to pass judgment on the Baptist's way of reading the Bible.

Bottom line, as a response to Chad, we read the Bible and anything else the same way we view the world in general.

..Reply.. Forum 2350 Gary Sep 11 at 21:24

re: post 2349 I know some  Anglicans who read the Bible and take it literal right among our men's group, along with other denominations like Baptist who we could learn from.  You singled out Anglicans, I would add Catholic's, most not interested in reading the Bible from what I see.

..Reply.. Forum 2349 Lou Sep 11 at 20:26

Re: post-2348 Looks like you're getting the hang of it.

An understatement? How?
How is post-2348 painting everyone with the same brush when it is stated that 'Anglicans would tend to" meaning that some do and to don't therefore different brushes? 


..Reply.. Forum 2348 Gary Sep 11 at 19:00

re: post 347 That's an understatement.  But you can't paint everyone with the same brush.

..Reply.. Forum 2347 Lou Sep 09 at 13:24

re: post 345 We all have our own approach to reading the Bible that has grown from the teaching we received from our parents and our church.
I guess that Anglicans would tend not to read the Bible as literally as other denominations would.

..Reply.. Forum 2345 Chad Aug 19 at 15:26

Re: post 344 I wonder should an RC Catholic read the Bible differently from an Anglican or a Seven-Day Adventist. Would coming from a different denomination make any difference? What would account for the difference?

Some questions I'm pondering at the moment. I'm off to the cottage again. I'm sorry I missed you. Maybe next time we want to engage. Maybe not. :-)

..Reply.. Forum 2344 Chad Aug 19 at 08:59

Re: post 343 I ask myself whether I'm a competent receiver of Biblical writing. The Bible is much more than words strung together in a particular order on a number of pages. What gives these particular words energy and power? Why did a writing technology surpass the natural widespread oral tradition? Why were the written words kept in vaults? Why were the religious elite so reluctant to release these words to the common people in forms they could read for themselves? It seems that those who control the power of the book can wield incredible power, why is this? It appears that any technology can have benefits and or detriments to humanity. How come this is true with the Bible? I wonder if it gets back to my original question, Who is a competent receiver of Biblical writing?

..Reply.. Forum 2343 Chad Aug 18 at 11:25

Re: post 342 Me 2 Lou. I was just waxing philosophically. I'm playing with the idea of a Brotherhood of the Bible. I don't know if anyone knows the true number of contributors to the Bible. It is a relatively small group of men. NT Wright and other scholars critique the Bible so that we know what it says and means. Without their expertise, we would probably miss some meaning and significance or possibly misinterpret some content. We know that not all scholars and theologians agree on Biblical interpretation or the emphasis one should attach to any passage or book. Reading it alone without some guidance or any outside influence without having any preconceived notions is probably impossible. 

So let's hear what expertise NT Wright has to offer that Gary thought was worthwhile.

..Reply.. Forum 2342 Lou Aug 18 at 10:19

re: post 341 Replying to a post the way you did here is what I intended the purpose of the forum to be, that and posting new thoughts for the group to discuss.
I wish Gary would post what N T Wright had to say about the OT reading but on the quotes page not here.

..Reply.. Forum 2341 Chad Aug 18 at 08:58

Re: post 339 I would say, most Christians get their spiritual nourishment from the NT. Of course, the NT could not exist without the writings from the Old Testament. The New Testament is unapologetically loaded with Old Testament writing, and symbolism and shares its structure and style with the OT. The New Testament completes the grand narrative set out in the Old Testament. At any rate, the Bible is what it is. Without the reader's engagement, it is just a lackluster book of ancient writing sitting on the shelf. I would guess most people are not all that interested in reading it. The ones that do read it usually have an agenda or are following someone else's agenda.

..Reply.. Forum 2340 Lou Aug 18 at 08:27

re: post 339 The idea is to post our own thoughts and have others reply to them using the 'reply' option. 
Your post 326 is a good example but Gary's attempts should have been done on a quote panel. 
BTW I have programmed it so that an attempt to post a link on this forum will automatically direct you to the quotes page.

We can reply to a post no matter how long ago it was posted.

..Reply.. Forum 2339 Chad Aug 18 at 01:15


I'm not sure what ideas we are chasing here. Can someone bring me up to date?

..Reply.. Forum 2333 Lou Aug 14 at 13:57

re: post 331 Everything in the Old Testament that is relevant is described in Hebrews and in Paul's letters, add the Psalms to that, and nothing of value is missing.
Books of only the New Testament and the Psalms have been published so I'm not the only one to say that.

On the subject of publishing: why don't you post the quotes you tried in posts 327, 328, and 329 on the quote page where it can be done?

You can also post what N T Wright has to say on the quote page. One on the left panel the  other on the right panel.

..Reply.. Forum 2331 gary Aug 14 at 08:32

Lou just wondered about this suggestion from N T Wright for those who don't like to read the OT?  "One could leap straight from Isaiah 53 and Daniel 7 into the Gospels and proceed from there."    I guess he thinks there is a tie in with Jesus there some where.

..Reply.. Forum 2330 Lou Aug 13 at 17:24

re: post 329 Gary, we can only post images, links, and text on the quote panels.

..Reply.. Forum 2326 Chad Aug 13 at 10:07

Re: post 323 The reason you may not see it is because you do not want to see it. You may not see it because there is nothing to see. Jesus addressed this issue. There is no definitive interpretation. He didn't say a rich person will not go to Heaven. He suggested that a rich person may have a more difficult time because he is serving two masters, his wealth, and his faith. Wealth can be measured faith can't be. It is not a competition. I think Christ was calling us to do some self-reflection. One conclusion I think we can all agree on is that you can't buy your way into Heaven with earthly wealth, or status. He asked one wealthy person to give his wealth to the poor so that he could be a focused disciple. The rich person regretfully could not do it. Christ knows full well this is a difficult lesson to be appreciated and embraced.

..Reply.. Forum 2325 Chad Aug 13 at 08:42

Re: post 324 Gary, I can't agree or disagree with your position that you think is factual. What I can't understand is how or why you come to your conclusion. I can't understand how you can measure the intensity of one nation's faith against another. Africa has 54 countries according to the UN. The current population of Africa is 1,408,173,244 as of Thursday, August 11, 2022, based on the latest United Nations estimates. The combined Canadian and US populations amount to an estimated 369,976.041. That figure is roughly 1/4 of Africa's population. So on numbers alone, you might assume Africa has more faith. What is the faith meter you are using? 

How is this information helpful towards your faith journey?

..Reply.. Forum 2324 gary Aug 12 at 17:55

re: post 323 Do you think the African nations have more faith on the whole than the US or Canada, I think it is a fact.

..Reply.. Forum 2323 Lou Aug 12 at 09:46

re: post 322 I don't see any connection between faith or belief and how rich or poor someone is. I don't think that faith is what Jesus thought the rich lacked.

..Reply.. Forum 2322 Chad Aug 11 at 13:36

Re: post 321 I think Jesus suggested that the rich may have a more difficult time with faith. I don't think that negates anything that you have said, Lou. I believe like you do that faith is personal. You can't accurately measure someone else's faith. The countries in the west may have more distractions than those in poorer nations, on the other hand, they may just have different distractions. That factor alone will not be indicative of anyone's faith. I guess the question to ask is, how do we feel about our own faith and beliefs? That faith is intimate and immediately available for our assessment.

..Reply.. Forum 2321 Lou Aug 11 at 11:11

re: post 320 By asking faith in what you are equating faith with belief. People and nations cannot have faith or belief only individuals can. I don't believe that being poor or rich has anything to do with having faith.

..Reply.. Forum 2320 gary Aug 11 at 07:19

re: post 319 Faith is the key word here, but faith in what? Everything dosen't always go according to script. Just a short question here, do you think poor people or poor nations have more faith. From what I observe, I would say so.

..Reply.. Forum 2319 Chad Aug 10 at 09:21

Re: post 317 Jesus seeks places, people, and situations that would be uncomfortable for most of us. Where we might be repulsed even fearful and willing to turn a blind eye Jesus is compelled to be compassionately engaged. Where we see difficulty and darkness he sees opportunity and light.

..Reply.. Forum 2318 Chad Aug 10 at 09:05

Re: post 315 I agree Lou the message is about having faith. Sufficient faith will give us the calm we need to do the right thing. There is no need for fear and panic. Christ is always present. Our fragile ego and our negative emotions need to be controlled and conquered. The storm is not the problem. It is our reaction to it that can be. Storms will frequently be present in some form or other therefore our faith will be tested continually. This is an important teaching. It is not a one-off occurrence. With faith, we have the courage to face all adversity. Without it, we are dithering, fearful, and paralyzed.

..Reply.. Forum 2317 Lou Aug 09 at 08:32

re: post 316 Today's Gospel reading "Mark 9:14-29 Jesus Heals a Boy Possessed by an Impure Spirit" is another example of Jesus calling us to feed and heal and to be of service to other.

..Reply.. Forum 2316 Lou Aug 09 at 07:57

re: post 315 An enlightened person has no fear or sadness and can deal with any situation.
He calmed both as the faith he said they were lacking would have.
The faith he expected of them, and of us, is the ability to deal with any situation steering the boat into the wave so it wouldn't capsize, for instance, or tough it until it passes.


..Reply.. Forum 2315 Chad Aug 08 at 19:21

Re: post 314 Why is it that Christ has no fear whatsoever? Did he calm the storm or did he calm their inner turmoil and fear? They feared for their life. They had the wrong focus. 

..Reply.. Forum 2314 Lou Jul 22 at 16:47

In Mark 4:35-41 Jesus Calms the Storm the disciples show faith in Jesus by waking him up and expecting him to fix their problems yet he said to them " Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”. 
What did he mean by that? What do you make of it?

..Reply.. Forum 2313 Lou Jul 18 at 16:46

Gary, Quoting someone else is not possible here, no copy and paste and no links, only your own words.
Posting of images, links, and text is done in one of the two quote panels.

..Reply.. Forum 2312 Chad Jul 10 at 12:42

re: post 307 We don't have to share private thoughts, perceptions, ideas, or beliefs. However, if we have something to share let's put it on the forum so it can be read and so it can possibly draw some related comments.

..Reply.. Forum 2311 Chad Jul 10 at 10:24


Matt 28:16-20 The Great Commission

I'm sure Christ was addressing his disciples and not a general crowd. Not many can be a good effective missionaries or an apologists. Christ gave his disciples under his care straightforward advice on how they should conduct themselves. Where I think the train left the tracks is that uninformed or ill-informed self-serving and or servants to political authority became the norm for evangelism. They were conflicted about serving two masters. Therefore, they harbored strong un-Christe-like biases and personal beliefs. Christ's teaching became distorted, diluted, and manipulated to serve personal and political interests. 

The history of Christianity is chock full of examples of this.

..Reply.. Forum 2310 Lou Jul 10 at 07:39

re: post 307 Gary, are you asking me for a reason to read the New Testament? You are the one who said that you wanted to read the whole Bible and then trimmed it down so I provided the resource and simply asked if you were using it. There's no need to comment but you can follow my example: inspirational comments on the front page and analytical comments on the Forum as a new topic.

I simply provided the resource for your Bible reading project. Comments are not required. 

..Reply.. Forum 2309 Lou Jul 10 at 07:26

re: post 308 You said it all. Let's pray for the day Christianity will live Christ's teaching.

..Reply.. Forum 2308 Chad Jul 09 at 23:26

re: post 305 Exactly right, Lou. The prophets come they tell the people where they are going wrong then they leave people to their own devices. We don't get it either by design or incompetence, Jesus said all he needed to say. The Gospels are short. As the rabbi, he gave us general practical and spiritual instructions on how to have a good life for ourselves and how we should treat others based on love. All he taught is doable and can be modified and applied to all aspects of our life. With his words and actions, he gave us all that we need for our body and soul to thrive. Yet, we want and demand more. He gave us the freedom to choose our fate. Yet we flounder with that awesome responsibility. We shy away from possibilities we have at hand and the potential that they could create. Prophets can't live our lives for us. Apparently, we prefer to be controlled and told what to do and how to think.

..Reply.. Forum 2307 Gary Jul 09 at 21:07

re: post 298  Not usually, why read it Lou if you don't feel you would like to share what you get out of it?  Is what you call the front page meant to be private to each person?  I will try for the next week to read it but if I want to comment on it where does it go?

..Reply.. Forum 2306 Lou Jul 09 at 20:35

re: post 305 The quote is from Acts 16:14-15 

..Reply.. Forum 2305 Lou Jul 09 at 19:30

re: post 304 " 14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us. "
No violence is involved here but there seems to be some sort of dichotomy between God and the Lord. That sounds like what you are talking about: being in the in-crowd which I agree it's the sort of thing that Jesus didn't go for. It's all cultural dressing that distorts the Truth and God keeps sending His Son to undo the damage we cause. 

..Reply.. Forum 2304 Chad Jul 09 at 14:06

It seems to me that active philosophers can not move their field along without considering the latest scientific research. I think the same can be said about religion. Although it is harder to update myths than it is to update ideas. When you think you have the bases covered. Covered enough to excommunicate those that disagree or to burn people at the stake as a permanent measure. When everything is set in stone, some guy slips through the cracks and creates a disruption in the worldview with new viable information. Instead of embracing the new, those who feel their self-interest is served by the old paradigm will resist, at times violently, the new paradigm.  After it's there it is almost impossible to stuff it back into Pandora's box. That won't stop people from trying. You see it is not enough that they are convinced they're right. They will demand that others see things their way by whatever means necessary. This is particularly true with religious dogma. Interestingly enough, Christ's teachings are mostly unaffected by any scientific advancements. If anything his teaching is enhanced by it. We should not clutch or defend an outmoded doctrine. Following Christ's teaching and example is the way to go. 

..Reply.. Forum 2302 Chad Jul 08 at 10:54

re: post 301 Christ made it clear how his disciples were to approach their mission. Mega churches and Sistine Chapels were not mentioned. There was no mention of allying with the Roman Empire. There is a Melonie song that was called Look What They Have Done to My Song Ma. I would change the words slightly. Look what they have done to my church God. Following the way of the ego and materialism is far easier to do than following Christ, his teaching, and his example. The answer to the question, What's in it for me? Is, becoming more Christ-like. It's a textbook example of delayed gratification. Do what you are supposed to do now. What matters isn't rewards or gratification. I guess a good question would be, What priorities did Christ have? What priorities do I have? Are they different? 

Luke was wise to add the conflict. The time of Acts was tumultuous. Men and their egotism easily get thrown off track by their quest for domination and imposed purification. Eastern philosophy and religion emphasize dialogue, meaning, and purpose over doctrine.

It is far better to focus on similarities than to focus on entrenched and mostly arbitrary differences.

..Reply.. Forum 2301 Lou Jul 08 at 09:22

re: post 300 More evidence of control can be found in today's NT reading one that ends up with a disagreement between  Paul and Barnabas which, BTW, Luke would have omitted if he was making things up.

That need to control seems to be a trait of the Abrahamic culture. The Eastern religions and Philosophies argue over meaning and over who to worship without attempting to make the others change their ways.

I agree with what you are saying about Christ. He repeatedly told his followers to spread the word about the Kingdom not about himself. If we had followed Jesus' teaching it would be a better world.

..Reply.. Forum 2300 Chad Jul 08 at 00:07

re: post 299 I agree Lou, it is all about humans wanting to have control and to control others. It has very little to do with Christ or his teaching. Every group can justify their righteous existence by a divine authority that they alone can understand. As far as I am aware Christ never bragged about his converts or the number of followers he had. Today the church is concerned with dwindling numbers of people and revenue. I'm sure Christ would have carried on his ministry even if all the synagogs of his day were shut down or destroyed. He walked among the people. He was content to be alone or address hundreds. He was all about quality, not so much on quantity. You didn't need to be special, privileged, learned, or pious. He was present. Then again he taught us that.

..Reply.. Forum 2299 Lou Jul 07 at 10:10

As an example of what I meant in my previous post:
Acts 15: 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” today's NT reading shows that the Pharisees joined the movement but wanted the new converts to come under the law of Moses the same way that some contemporary Christians are more concerned with controlling the neighbors than they are with loving the neighbor..

..Reply.. Forum 2298 Lou Jul 07 at 09:46

re: post 297 Reading the front page, including the lesson, the prayers, the NT passage, and the Gospel, as what Gary calls daily devotion, is what I do every morning but I don't feel I have to make any comment about what I get out of it nor do I expect anyone else to feel obliged to make any.
My post 296 was directed principally at Gary since he mentioned reading the NT as a project. I am curious to know whether he uses it or not. Gary Do you?

Chad, You are free to read the Bible any way you want and make analytical comments on Forum 2(this forum) but not on the front page where we should post only inspiring comments.

..Reply.. Forum 2297 Chad Jul 07 at 09:07

re: post 296 I read it most of the time. I have made comments in the past. I get responses like that is not the way you should read the Bible.

..Reply.. Forum 2296 Lou Jul 02 at 08:43

I am curious, do you read the daily New Testament passage offered on the front page of the website, I do.

..Reply.. Forum 2295 Lou Jul 01 at 14:24

re: post 294 your Forum 14 would be a good start except for the mention of white privileged men and of the mention of going to the cottage, which we appreciate but it should be done in this forum Forum2. Staying on topic is a must if we want to understand each other, again talking with is the idea, not talking at.

..Reply.. Forum 2294 Lou Jul 01 at 14:09

re: post 293 I am ready to follow up with Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy. The book does an excellent job with everything you mention here. We would do it in Forum 1, post a quote using the ' ' icon if what we are posting is text, and dialog about it. I wonder if Gary can take what is posted as ideas to be understood, discussed, proved, or disproved but not necessarily believed. Every time anyone mentions that Christianity has done bad things in the past he gets upset that's too bad because we don't get to know his point of view.

..Reply.. Forum 2293 Chad Jul 01 at 10:25

re: post 292 In the Fall, we should follow up with Perennial Philosophy, maybe the emergence and possibly comparative afterlife experiences each religion believes and proclaims to be true. Another topic we might discuss is why Christianity lends itself so well to imperialism, capitalism, and the exploitation of people and the planet. Also, why does Christianity fail to openly recognize and adhere to the UN Human Rights doctrine? Just some thoughts. You and Gary can mull this over. Reject it outright if that suits you. Gary may have some good ideas for topics. These are just suggestions.  I'll be back next week maybe we can talk about it.   

..Reply.. Forum 2292 Chad Jun 30 at 12:50

re: post 291 I have stated it is not the case. It is not the case. Reincarnation is as you say it is. Please, forget what I said. Please drop it. I do know the difference.

..Reply.. Forum 2291 Lou Jun 29 at 07:53

re: post 287 The reason you see such an echo is that you the body as what reincarnate as in the Christian bodily resurrection but that is not the case. 
The body is the product of the recycling of elements but the body is not what gets reincarnated. Reincarnation means that the soul gets the use of a new body.

Please tell me whether you understand and agree with the definition or you don't, you don't have to believe it. 

Then we'll drop it.

..Reply.. Forum 2290 Lou Jun 28 at 16:01

re: post 289 Am I to assume that is a reply to post 288?

I fully read and still maintain that reflecting and echoing do not apply. Reincarnation is nothing like that. Getting down to the business of building a new body, the new body is built of recycled elements but it would be so with or without reincarnation. Reincarnation is not about parts of souls being reused.

This just popped into my head: in my car-and-driver example of reincarnation the car is what makes use of recycled elements and the driver is what is reincarnated.

This is a hard subject to deal with this way. Face to face over coffee, or beer, we would have a better chance of coming to grip with it. 

..Reply.. Forum 2289 Chad Jun 28 at 15:24

I don't think you read my full post or got anything of what I was saying. I'll put it down to poor communication on my part. The last post here.

..Reply.. Forum 2288 Lou Jun 28 at 11:55

re: post 287 That is exactly what was needed. Saying that " nature's shuffling and reshuffling of the mass/energy deck reflected or echoed the idea of reincarnation. " shows a misunderstanding of reincarnation. 
That is a valid ballpark but a ballpark in a different country, as it were, so there's no connection. 

Now let's vacate this Forum 2 and continue our dialog on the Philosophical Forum.

..Reply.. Forum 2287 Chad Jun 28 at 11:43

re: post 286 I didn't say that was reincarnation. I said that nature's shuffling and reshuffling of the mass/energy deck reflected or echoed the idea of reincarnation. Reincarnation is man centred concept in certain Eastern religions.

..Reply.. Forum 2286 Lou Jun 28 at 08:15

re: post 285 Why can't you tell me whether you still define reincarnation as the recycling of basic elements as you have said in the past? 

Do you still believe that?


..Reply.. Forum 2285 Chad Jun 27 at 17:16

re: post 284 I agree, carry on.

..Reply.. Forum 2284 Lou Jun 27 at 13:49

re: post 283 You brought up The Perennial Philosophy but so far have not from a seeker's point of view let alone that of a devoted student.
Unless you understand what Jesus meant by" Blessed are the poor in spirit" and apply it, which you have not done so far, there is no way you'll get it.
We have to agree, not necessarily believe, on the meaning of Karma, Dharma, and Reincarnation. Unless you truly agree that the car and driver example comes close to describing reincarnation I have to drop out and respond to some of your other stuff like your second paragraph.

..Reply.. Forum 2283 Chad Jun 27 at 12:49

re: post 282 Look at it this way, you will be the teacher and I will be your devoted silent student. I'll only give a message saying I have read your post. In that way, there won't be any distracting or interfering dialogue.

..Reply.. Forum 2282 Chad Jun 27 at 11:51

re: post 280 I am looking at it from someone who is reading Perennial Philosophy from a seeker's point of view and not from a preacher's point of view Perennial Philosophy. So carry on with the terms defined in Perennial Philosophy and I will follow along without my annoying questions, analogies, and possible extrapolations that come from my imagination. I think they give you the wrong impression. So say what you want to say I will not interfere. If I get stuck or confused I will ask you to clarify. Philosophy is a clarification of terms and language. Continue, and we will use your understanding of terms and beliefs. I will hold my thoughts. 

..Reply.. Forum 2281 Chad Jun 27 at 11:29

re: post 280

..Reply.. Forum 2280 Lou Jun 27 at 09:35

re: post 279 In post 273 I wrote chapter when I meant paragraph( tsk, TSK).

Chad, I need you to reply plainly to one statement per post. In post 279 what are you agreeing with? 

  1. reincarnation is central to the Perennial Philosophy
  2. the car and driver example comes close to describing reincarnation
  3. That the recycling of elements that occurs when we die can in no way be called reincarnation

I do not expect you to believe any of that but to agree on the meaning of the terms.

Please simply tell me what you agree with and we'll move to Forum 1 on the left panel.

..Reply.. Forum 2279 Chad Jun 26 at 23:25

re: post 273 I agree Lou. What I see is that the principles, if that is the right term, of Perennial Philosophy pop up in unexpected places. It seems to me some things although not identical to Perennial Philosophy can reflect aspects of Perennial Philosophy. Maybe my imagination is getting carried away.

..Reply.. Forum 2278 Chad Jun 26 at 20:09

re: post 277 I like the Proverb, May you be a half-hour in Heaven before the Devil knows you're dead.

..Reply.. Forum 2277 Chad Jun 26 at 20:05

re: post 274 Andy was a good man, a good heart loved by many including myself. 

Gary, you have to watch the Celts. They have a very dry and witty sense of humor. Sometimes not all that dry. With a name like Burnham this should be obvious. If you want to insult someone behind his back, you could say, he is a body without a head. ;-)

..Reply.. Forum 2276 Gary Jun 26 at 18:59

re: post 275   Ok, delete it.

..Reply.. Forum 2275 Lou Jun 26 at 17:28

re: post 274 Gary if you want to quote anything: An old Celtic proverb in this case you have to do it in one of the Quote panels. I don't think wives would be too please by this post!

..Reply.. Forum 2274 Gary Jun 26 at 13:53

New Topic:  Saw this in the church bulletin today and wondered if you guys can relate. In my case I think Andy was as close as it comes for me. Wife doesn't count.  "Anyone without a soul-friend is like a body without a head." --An old Celtic proverb attributed to Brigit--  <

..Reply.. Forum 2273 Lou Jun 26 at 12:25

re: post 271 If this is about that second paragraph you are welcome to copy "I feel that the whole universe...what I have been told " to this forum and I'll answer. 

The first and the last chapters are about the Perennial Philosophy and I am preparing some answers. But we have to come to an understanding about what is meant by reincarnation, not believe it to be true but agree to use the meaning that all the Eastern Religions have for it since it is central to the Perennial Philosophy. In Quote 1252 I used a car and driver the Indians us a set of clothes. You have to agree that that is what is meant by reincarnation but you don't have to believe it. Let me know where you stand I'm willing to pass on what I learned.

..Reply.. Forum 2272 Gary Jun 25 at 14:40

re: post 270   Sort of.

..Reply.. Forum 2271 Chad Jun 25 at 09:57

It wasn't meant to be Perennial Philosophy. I was asking how you thought these things I mentioned fit into Perennial Philosophy. You have cut off discussions with definite answers. Well done.

..Reply.. Forum 2270 Chad Jun 25 at 09:50

re: post 269  Just to be clear, It is not a gay disease. It is not related to sin or the Bible. Is that a fair statement?

..Reply.. Forum 2269 Gary Jun 25 at 08:56

re: post 268 Okay not a gay disease but spread mainly by gay men. Lets move on.

..Reply.. Forum 2268 Chad Jun 24 at 17:15

re: post 265 Gary, I don't know what you are talking about so how can I convince you of anything. I checked with the Durham Health Unit regarding Monkey Pox and I found nothing that mentioned gay sex. There is nothing mentioned about sin or the Bible either. Why are you spreading falsehoods?

..Reply.. Forum 2267 Lou Jun 24 at 15:02

I felt that we needed a new setup. Quotes 2 and 3 have been moved to a quote page. Which could easily hold three panels if needed.

..Reply.. Forum 2266 Lou Jun 24 at 14:01

re: post 265 I promised myself that the next time you would ask to be let have the last word I would really let it happen by disabling your password.

This forum is not about having the last word. It is not about passing judgment on each other. It is about the exchange of ideas. You are allowed to post anything you want and we are allowed to take it any way we want or ignore it. The same thing goes for every one of us if you don't like what we post or what we quote accept it, show it to be wrong, or ignore it

Nobody gets the last word in real life even less so here.

The Webmaster has spoken.


..Reply.. Forum 2265 Gary Jun 24 at 13:32

re: post 264 Maybe I should have stopped at the first sentence. But the fact is disease is spread by gay men having sex. Maybe not paying the price for sin, but paying the price.  Why are you guys so adamant that it is a good healthy thing?  If you could convince me of that I would lay off.  Where in the Bible do thay condone it? That's all I'm saying.  Thanks for letting me have the last word!

..Reply.. Forum 2264 Chad Jun 24 at 11:46

re: post 263 That could be. He definitely has a different perspective. Is this a Christian perspective? 

..Reply.. Forum 2263 Lou Jun 24 at 11:00

re: post 262 Gary seems to be fascinated by gay sex.

..Reply.. Forum 2262 Chad Jun 24 at 10:40

re: post 261

 This was the email I received from Gary. The reference is Monkey Pox.

Yet another disease brought on by gay sex. Maybe that is the price for sin. 

..Reply.. Forum 2261 Chad Jun 23 at 22:43

re: post 260 Gary sent me a Christian email. 

..Reply.. Forum 2260 Lou Jun 23 at 16:23

re: post 259 That is the wrong attitude. You do have a lot to contribute and you are seeking.
Please do reply to my posts as I asked and please reply to emails.

Your post in Quote 1 deserves a lot of thinking please wait for my response.


..Reply.. Forum 2259 Chad Jun 23 at 14:43

re: post 258 My point I was trying to make is that I know nothing. I only have opinions that are based on my very limited perspective and heavy biases. Therefore most if not all of them are wrong or so off course that they are complete jibberish. That has nothing to do with you or Gary. Unfortunately, I can not delete my previous post. I really should refrain from posting. I have nothing to offer.


..Reply.. Forum 2258 Lou Jun 23 at 14:10

You have not replied to my post-1254 so I take it to mean that you really think that I claim to be all-knowing. I am not, nobody is. Respond to Quote 1254 as a reply to this post then I'll be able to respond to your post Chad Quote 1255 

..Reply.. Forum 2257 Chad Jun 21 at 15:56

re: post 254 This has very little to do with Perennial Philosophy. It should be ignored.

..Reply.. Forum 2256 Chad Jun 21 at 14:26

re: post 255 It turns out I can't delete it. Just ignore it.

..Reply.. Forum 2255 Chad Jun 21 at 12:11

re: post 254 In the theme of suffering I found this. 

The truth is, of course, that we are all organically related to God, to Nature, and to our fellow men. If every human being were constantly and consciously in a proper relationship with his divine, natural, and social environment there would be only so much suffering as Creation makes inevitable.

This statement is an inevitable conclusion from the eight-fold path. We are part of the universe. We are not the Universe. Our perceptions and other human limitations fool us. On the other hand that is all, that we can use. Even though it isn't in human terms we need to interpret it that way. I have said too much. It is very tentative at best. You of course will disagree with me. I can delete it.  

..Reply.. Forum 2254 Chad Jun 21 at 10:34

re: post 253 No I have gone through a number of themes. I find that interesting. This approach doesn't change anything about the philosophy. I haven't gone through the suffering theme yet. I'll do that now. I find that your conclusions are as accurate as Huxley's intended. The model this philosophy creates doesn't describe or encompass everything to my satisfaction. However, it does point to the source or Godhead of all religions. I feel in a way it is the Humanities version of describing creation. Science uses different languages and symbols. Scientific knowledge is also incomplete. When I give that weak analogy you will say that I don't understand what Perennial Philosophy is. That is OK. I'm used to that. Most importantly it is 100% accurate. I know some of my analogies will not stick or fit into the Perennial Philosophy especially as you see it very well if at all. That is why I'm mostly keeping them to myself. However, my response may change over time. At present, I'm not sure if I will ever be ready to discuss Perennial Philosophy with you.

..Reply.. Forum 2253 Lou Jun 21 at 08:59

Have you given up on reading Huxley Aldous's The Perennial Philosophy? I would like to get Panel 1 back to the comments on the book if you are still interested.
I found the chapter on Suffering intriguing.

..Reply.. Forum 2252 Chad Jun 20 at 20:19

re: post 251 All of what you say is worth pondering. I accept your criticism openly without rebuttal or any negative feelings. It is a good idea to take a time out to reassess true intentions and attitudes.  

..Reply.. Forum 2251 Chad Jun 20 at 17:48

re: post 250 You make good points, Lou.

..Reply.. Forum 2250 Lou Jun 20 at 15:40

re: post 246 That post is not about spontaneity or egocentricity It's about trying to improve how we communicate in the forum and on the quotes. We do need to listen and read and all our thoughts are important but we should not take them too seriously. Apologies and this very post do not belong here since they have nothing to do with ideas  In this forum float any idea of yours that you want but be prepared to have them ignored, shot down, reviled, or agreed with all without being offended or apologetic. Gary needs to cultivate that attitude and tell us his side of the story.

This is to make it easier to discuss ideas whether we agree or disagree. 
We should review our quotes before posting we will not regret posting them.
In the quote panels could we post nothing but quotes and responses to quotes and responses to responses about quotes.
Apologies, which are not needed in the first place, would belong in the forum with reference to the quote in question.

..Reply.. Forum 2249 Lou Jun 20 at 15:19

re: post 247 What I found absolutely wonderful is what is being prayed for: not to have my problems fixed but the ability to endure them.

..Reply.. Forum 2248 Chad Jun 20 at 13:40

re: post 247

I agree Lou, God of the present moment is something to contemplate, meditate and pray on as one moment morphs into the next and as we are allowed to experience God's presence.

re post 246. I have been too spontaneous and egocentric. My thoughts are not necessary and certainly not important. I know very little. I need to focus on fierce listening.

..Reply.. Forum 2247 Lou Jun 20 at 09:27

Isn't the God of the present moment, prayer absolutely wonderful!

..Reply.. Forum 2246 Lou Jun 20 at 09:03

In the quote panels could we post nothing but quotes and responses to quotes and responses to responses about quotes. Apologies, which are not needed in the first place, would belong in the forum with reference to the quote in question.
This is simply to make it easier to have a conversation about ideas whether we agree or disagree. We should review our quotes before posting we will not regret posting them.

..Reply.. Forum 2245 Chad Jun 17 at 14:47

re: post 244  I agree Lou, They could check the history of fewer than 100 years ago and see clear examples of how their thinking and what they are doing is wrong. You are right Jesus could give the Israelis the same parable today. The reaction from the elite would be exactly the same. If he became too influential he would be eliminated. The Israeli government is very sensitive to criticism of their poor behavior. However, they can point to almost every country and site current or previous atrocities. That isn't a proper justification for doing wrong and being non-compashionate. Unfortunately, it is true. That parable is priceless if it were only understood and universally implemented. Jesus was a great teacher. We are just poor learners. 

..Reply.. Forum 2244 Lou Jun 17 at 12:26

re: post 243 Gary's reaction was an automatic response to the word gay - negative yeah. 

Israel is in the news again. They have no more respect for the Palestinians than their ancestors had for the Samaritans and they show absolutely no compassion toward the Palestinians so I'm sure Jesus would give us The Good Palestinian parable if he were walking about nowadays.

If God were to send his Son into this mess would he send him to the Middle East? That is where He is needed, what would they do to Him this time!

..Reply.. Forum 2243 Chad Jun 17 at 09:53

re: post 242 This parable and most parables reflect real-life scenarios and our unchanging human nature. They are just as valid today as when Christ told them 2000 years ago.

..Reply.. Forum 2242 Chad Jun 17 at 09:21

re: post 241 Are you saying Gary's reaction was not negative? You are right, I could have misinterpreted his reaction. I should have clarified what he meant. 

..Reply.. Forum 2241 Lou Jun 17 at 08:58

re: post 239 Presenting a different point of view should not be taken as a negative reaction. 

..Reply.. Forum 2240 Lou Jun 17 at 08:45

re: post 239 True, anyone would do but he used the occasion to poke once more at the Pharisees.
The Jews held the Samaritans in great contempt so could it be that Jesus, by using a Samaritan, was once more pointing at the lack of compassion of the Jews by having the Samaritan show compassion while the Jewish clergy walked away.

There's always a lot to be learned from these parables, saying, and actions of Jesus more than can be had from a superficial reading. The history, the world view, and word meaning of the culture must be kept in mind to get the full meaning.

..Reply.. Forum 2239 Chad Jun 17 at 00:14

re: post 238 I agree with you 100 %. The parable isn't about visible minorities. Jesus could have used a Roman soldier that felt compassion for the assaulted person. The point is that the Samaritan did the right thing and others that could have and should have didn't. It is about Compassion. That is why there should not have been such a negative reaction. Retelling the story with different characters does not change the underlying message. This same story plays out all the time. Picasso would have said that it is the lie that reveals the truth.

..Reply.. Forum 2238 Lou Jun 16 at 20:36

re: post 237 That the parable is an answer to who is my neighbor is what makes me opt for compassion instead of discrimination.

..Reply.. Forum 2237 Lou Jun 16 at 20:01

re: post 236 The reason that gay works for you in that parable is that you interpret it differently than I do. Differences to which we are entitled, of course.
It's not a parable about minorities or discrimination but about compassion especially compassion towards others ( Palestinian/Jew or Muslim/Christian ). A gay person would not carry the same meaning.
I didn't mean a Palestinian then but a Palestinian now. 


..Reply.. Forum 2236 Chad Jun 16 at 18:16

re: post 235 It was not intended to get Gary's goat. I was under the impression that he had withdrawn from the forum for a while. I used a gay man because it just happens to be gay pride month. With due respect, I stand by my decision to use a gay man as the protagonist because it is a current minority in the spotlight. It wasn't meant to create a reaction or in Gary's case an overreaction.  I was truly wondering if changing the protagonist to a modern character would make the parable more relevant and current. You could use a Palestinian. As I said before you can use pretty much use any minority. However, using a Palestinian wouldn't have been as effective.  I didn't expect Gary to respond. I'm glad he did. I found his brief comment revealing. Although gays are now mainstream. They still have a social stigma to overcome. 

I think what I have learned is that minorities, not just gay men have been despised all through time. They now more than ever need our support. The extremists specifically white supremists have been emboldened to take violent action against minorities and those that resist their ideals. That has nothing to do with Gary's response. Gary has a learned aversion to Gays but he would never take action against anyone. He says he would never hurt a fly. I believe that. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is.  In my opinion, Jesus was not in favor of stigmatizing or scapegoating minorities or even enemies. He was all for respecting people as people.

..Reply.. Forum 2235 Lou Jun 16 at 14:56

re: post 232 In my view, to fit all the details and meanings of the parable the only suitable protagonist would be a Palestinian. And in addition, the choice of a gay person can be viewed as a poke at Gary.

Sharing a point of view is useful saying 'I disagree' is not.

Some Christians want to get things from Jesus others understand that Jesus wants them to be a conduit of his favors to the needy. James did tell us to let our actions show our faith.

..Reply.. Forum 2234 Chad Jun 16 at 14:33

re: post 233  I'm sorry when you mentioned working at St Vincent's Kitchen and offering a homeless person the use of a personal shower I assumed these are things that you do. The message I got was that you actually did Christian things and Lou didn't. He was only discussing aspects of love in an abstract and non-practical way.  I'm a bit confused. What did you mean? 

..Reply.. Forum 2233 Gary Jun 16 at 13:49

re: post 232 Wait a minute, no where did I mention any charities or volunteer efforts on my behalf.

..Reply.. Forum 2232 Chad Jun 16 at 13:18

re: post 231 I could have picked any number of protagonists to update the parable. I think you might agree that a gay man does the trick. It certainly got your immediate attention. Jesus could have chosen another protagonist. He wanted to get people's attention about an observation he had made about people's inappropriate behavior and negative and/or dispassionate attitudes. The Samaritan suited his purposes. That is what I had in mind. I think it worked except I asked you to read the parable only this time exchanging a gay man for the Samaritan and it seems to me that you could not get around my use of a gay man as the protagonist. So I ask you, who is obsessed? Gays are not the only minorities that are suppressed in to-days society The Samaritans were not the only group shunned and looked down upon in Christ's time. So the parable is still valid with a contemporary twist with a number of possible protagonists. Relax it is just a parable. We can learn from parables if we choose to. This is just one way of using parables in a contemporary context.

I agree with Lou, rather than slandering each other explicitly or even implicitly we could simply stick to the subject. For instance, If we don't agree with a point or a position we can just say so. However, It is better for everyone's understanding if can express why we agree or disagree with a point.  We could say something like I hear what you are saying. However, I see things this way and explain our personal points of view. In that way, we are sharing our perspectives and not mud-slinging which only creates resentment.

Lou and I agree with your need to take action as Christians. We both are fans of James in that respect. Although it would be hard to be a Christian and not be proactive. Paul, although he taught that acceptance was all that was required was incredibly active demonstrating his faith. Christ was very proactive and at times critical of the spiritually numb leaders who professed unhealthy application of a quasi-legal status quo. Christ was always on the move with his ministry. Gary your volunteer efforts and charity are demonstrations of your love for your fellow man. I applaud you.

..Reply.. Forum 2231 Lou Jun 16 at 08:22

re: post 227 Gary, I agree with you that Chad seems obsessed with the gay agenda by bringing a gay person into the Good Samaritan story. 
BUT Lou is in no way obsessed with the gay agenda, I simply respond to posts that are posted by you and Chad.
What I condemn is the persecution by Christians of people who do not live up to the Christian set of beliefs.

Your second paragraph does not belong here. The discussion of ideas ( "Chad and Lou have lost their way" does not qualify as a sharing of ideas) is what we are after on this forum so please stick to it with more than "I don't agree".
Jesus in the Gospel is the one who tells us to love all people, take care of the poor and widowed, etc. Read the parable of the sheep and the goats.

..Reply.. Forum 2230 Lou Jun 16 at 07:50

re: post 222 I need to spell out what I implied in my previous answer. Homosexuality was accepted and not condemned as it is now so 'a good happy man' instead of 'a good Samaritan' would make absolutely no sense.

..Reply.. Forum 2229 Gary Jun 16 at 07:30

re: post 228Sorry no offence intended but like you said we all have our own way navigating life.  You, Lou, and me, Timmies one day.

..Reply.. Forum 2228 Chad Jun 16 at 00:50

re: post 227 I was just wondering what the effect might be. Thanks, Gary you gave me the answer. Thanks for the invite. Saturday we are celebrating Megan and Andy's 1st year anniversary. Maybe next time.

Gary what is with the unfair criticism. What I do with my time and money is my business. If you are telling me you are doing volunteer work and you are being charitable. Good for you.

..Reply.. Forum 2227 Gary Jun 15 at 21:28

re: post 226I'm not getting dragged into another useless discussion. I would just like to know one thing, why are you two so obsessed with the gay agenda? It doesn't matter if the Samartian was black or white, gay or straight, why keep throwing the gay word out there at every chance. 

Lou you preach to me all the time I should love all people, take care of the poor and widowed etc.  Yet you never say what you are doing in this regard. Do you help out at St. Vincents Kitchen downtown, do you invite the homeless home for a shower? Just wondering.

Friday John, Mike, Joe, maybe Ken and me are getting together on my deck at 8:45am for discussion, your both welcome. (I know your busy)

..Reply.. Forum 2226 Lou Jun 15 at 19:43

re: post 225 The way this forum should work is that an idea is presented and the others respond. If they don't agree they should describe how.

What impressed the audience was that the Good Samaritan, a man ostracised by Jews, does the charitable thing while Jewish clergy can't be bothered.
The man being gay would have meant absolutely nothing to them.

Chad, what makes you think it could have had more impact?
Gary, why don't you think so?

Are we trying to communicate or are we simply throwing words around? 

..Reply.. Forum 2225 Lou Jun 15 at 17:42

re: post 223 You should tell us why you don't think so as I  did.

..Reply.. Forum 2224 Lou Jun 15 at 17:31

re: post 223 Thank you, Gary, we do want your opinion. We don't have to agree with yours and you don't have to agree with ours The man being a Samaritan had significance the same thing would not have happened had Jesus chosen to make him a gay man.

..Reply.. Forum 2223 Gary Jun 15 at 15:10

re: post 222  I don't think so!

..Reply.. Forum 2222 Chad Jun 15 at 14:24

re: post 221 I wonder could the good Samaritan be replaced by a good gay man would the parable not have the same impact. Maybe more impact. Just a thought. 

..Reply.. Forum 2221 Chad Jun 15 at 14:18

re: post 220  Jesus did what he could to support other minority groups, women, and children in his patriarchal society, without alienating himself. A lot of his teaching was radical at the time. What surprises me is that it is too radical for some Christians today. The disciples he chose were all men. However, many of his close followers were women. He talked to foreign women without hesitation which was unheard of in his time.

..Reply.. Forum 2220 Lou Jun 15 at 12:04

re: post 219 Women were leaders both with Jesus and in Acts. Jesus mentioned adultery and divorce. In Exodus Chapter one Men and women are equal; men take over in chapter 2. You are correct it didn't take long for patriarchy to assert itself.

..Reply.. Forum 2219 Chad Jun 15 at 11:44

re: post 218 That is an interesting point, Lou. However, because it has been omitted from the Bible doesn't mean it didn't exist. The Bible was written from a straight male perspective and the early church leaders were integrated at first but fairly quickly it became essentially an all-male domain. It has that bias. Women and minorities may see this bias clearer than we do. Jesus did address how we should address others. I think we may be looking at this through a different lens. I think we are not at odds. I think we mostly agree on this issue.

..Reply.. Forum 2218 Lou Jun 15 at 09:03

re: post 217 We don't read anything in the NT that would point to discrimination against women and sexual orientation in the early church. Discrimination soon developed but it is starting to slowly disappear.

..Reply.. Forum 2217 Chad Jun 15 at 08:22

re: post 214 I agree with you, Lou. A number of religions lag behind their modern societies when it comes to dealing with visible minorities and women. It comes from our natural instinct not to trust anything that is different from the norm. It is a brain function that has helped us to survive in the past. We can rationally override this instinct or we can exaggerate it. Beliefs set by these basic instincts are extremely powerful. Especially when these beliefs are not properly challenged by religious institutions. Despite this, some of us are able to challenge and change our beliefs when we see they are detrimental to the well-being of others. You and I feel that Christ was teaching us to override our basic animal instincts with rational thinking and love. Some are unable to discern what is best for themselves and their society and fully grasp what Christ was teaching. They haven't come to that realization yet. This is the main cause of friction in most religious institutions and society. Things are getting better slowly. However, some are conscious of the changes and that makes them reinforce and further entrench their beliefs because they feel existentially threatened.  

..Reply.. Forum 2216 Chad Jun 15 at 00:07

re: post 215 In all fairness, Gary feels he is doing the right things for himself and for his God. Is he right? He feels justified and righteous. That is all that's important. My opinion doesn't count nor does it matter. I'm not his judge. I want Gail and Gary to be my friend.  

..Reply.. Forum 2215 Chad Jun 14 at 19:23

re: post 214 I could state how I interpret things but really what good would that do. I have been condemned for all time. Gary could tell you better than I exactly who is going to join me. I have always thought this was a possibility. Now I know with certainty. I suppose my biggest crime is that I don't quite see eye to eye with Gary and other Christians like him.

..Reply.. Forum 2214 Lou Jun 14 at 16:07

re: post 213 I think that Jesus would have the same opinion about the Christians who discriminate against LGTBQ people that he had about the Pharisees and that is really a problem for Gary and yet he won't tell us where in the Gospels or the NT there is anything that would call for let alone justify such persecutions.

Gary, it's your turn to respond.

..Reply.. Forum 2213 Lou Jun 14 at 15:48

re: post 212 Gary should tell us what it is that is said on the website that he finds objectionable. I suspect that it's not what is said as who says it. I made statements in the past about what Jesus asked of us that I am sure he doesn't agree with and yet he didn't respond. 

..Reply.. Forum 2212 Chad Jun 14 at 15:09

re: post 210 I thought Gary might be expanding his horizon when he was reading Merton. Merton was heavily influenced by Eastern philosophy and religion. He was a friend of the Dali Lama. I thought Jesus was attempting to move us from our narrow self serving vision. I'm seeking the truth as I understand what that means in my limited capacity. I question the validity of rules, dogma, and the status quo. I question whether I am on the right track. I seem to be at odds with the thinking of so many Christians. There are a few that I feel somewhat aligned with. You have mentioned a number of them. God gave us a brain. However, I don't believe God can be restricted by our limited thinking or our emotional and psychological needs. I believe the words of the Bible can point to God. I do not believe the words of the Bible are God. It is mostly the implied meaning of the Bible's words that are most important. At any rate, this somehow makes me lost and unChristian. I guess I have to live with that. I have been judged unsatisfactory and bent for eternal Hell. I can thank Gary and some others for that.

..Reply.. Forum 2211 Lou Jun 14 at 11:06

re: post 207 Thanks but I provide the vehicle you make it what it is.

..Reply.. Forum 2210 Lou Jun 14 at 11:04

re: post 209 I claim that along with Desmond Tutu, Michael Curry, Mother Theresa, and others we are following the teaching of Christ as detailed in the Gospels: love and service instead of proselytizing which a majority of Christians do. If Gary is offended by the call to service he has better stay away. 

He's on a sabbatical so he probably will not see this. 

..Reply.. Forum 2209 Chad Jun 13 at 23:59

re: post 208  You are right, Gary. I should let the Christians do their thing. Take your Sabbatical Gary.

..Reply.. Forum 2208 Gary Jun 13 at 21:32

Agree Chad. Take my Sabbatical now. ;-))

..Reply.. Forum 2207 Chad Jun 13 at 17:56

re: post 206 Lou you have created a great forum. I'm quite happy with it. When I am pleased, that usually means the majority of others will not be. I imagine the forum you have created would be like the Twilight Zone to most Christians. Lou, I don't think we are like most Christians. We are Progressives by default. I say by default because we didn't have intentions of being so and we don't label ourselves as such. We just are. I think Gary would agree. I think that is why he feels we are lost. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just a feeling.

..Reply.. Forum 2206 Chad Jun 12 at 16:18

re: post 205  It is the right place, Gary. You participate from time to time and that is OK by me. Unfortunately, I turn some people off. I don't tow the Orthodox line. For the Forum to work for the group I would need to stop making comments. I'm OK to do that. My comments are only opinions and reactions to what I have read.  I can be a silent partner. I would need to exercise restraint. I would have to be more open and tolerant when listening to others' perspectives and points of view. I don't have answers.

Andy was constantly talking with authority about the second coming and the end times. He thought like many other (SDAs) that the signs were quite clear that the Second Coming was imminent.  I'm with you Gary I hope everything goes according to his vision.

I'm happy to hear that Andy had a good turnout. I'm not surprised though. Hopefully, Nancy and his family are buoyed by the love and goodwill shown. 

..Reply.. Forum 2205 Gary Jun 12 at 14:25

Andy wanted us all to know God, I learned from him and the guys we met with regulary on my deck until he got sick felt the same way  Yesterday John, Mike, Ken and myself were at his funeral. Solemn, old hymns, his church family maybe 125 in attendance, I would be lucky to draw 5 people.  Enough of Andy, probably my best friend, he has moved on to the next stage and Nancy has no doubt she will see him again at the second coming as the Bible states clearly.

Probably everything I put on here is in the wrong place, ever wonder why there is only two of you participating?

..Reply.. Forum 2204 Chad Jun 12 at 12:27

Gary and I should have used this place to talk about Andy. Gary brought up an excellent point. He said he was talking to Andy and his wife a short time ago and blink an eye and he is physically gone. However, he exists in our memories. He made me think about how I think of things. At times we were at loggerheads on topics regarding religious dogma. We were both adamant that our way of perceiving things subjects was the proper way. We both thought we were justified in our stands. We were in fact both justified by our perceptions. We were so convinced of our position that we didn't want to consider alternatives to our own perspective. We became entrenched and blinded by our need to be right. I have been considering this ever since. I am trying to be a  better more empathetic listener. I could have learned a lot more from Andy if I had been more open to what he was trying to communicate. He was a good man with a loving heart. That shone through any disputes we may have had. He just wanted me to see his light.  

..Reply.. Forum 2203 Lou Jun 11 at 21:57

re: post 202 Yes, we will now make all our comments that are not about any of the quotes in this forum so they can be seen. 

..Reply.. Forum 2202 Chad Jun 11 at 20:47

re: post 201 I noticed he made a comment about Andy in the icon that's for stuff that doesn't go in the forum. Is that what you are referring to. I made a comment about his comment there.

..Reply.. Forum 2201 Lou Jun 11 at 19:32

One of Gary's posts went unnoticed because he didn't post it here. This is where we post our own thoughts about anything.

The three quote panels are where we post someone else's comments and our comments about the latest comment on the panel. A new quote should be posted on the panel with the oldest access date.

..Reply.. Forum 2200 Chad Jun 11 at 00:13

re: post 199 It was Christ's voice and his message he did not want to hear. In this case, Christ was the other. Saul wanted nothing to do with Christians or Christianity.

..Reply.. Forum 2199 Lou Jun 10 at 15:12

re: post 198 What was that other voice that Saul refused to hear; can you give us a verse number? 

..Reply.. Forum 2198 Chad Jun 10 at 12:15

re: post 197 It is interesting to note that the other whose voice Saul refused to hear. The voice he despised and wanted to eliminate was actually the very voice that was needed for his epiphany and deliverance. We can learn so much from others if we are prepared to listen with full attention and empathy. Hopefully, we can also have an epiphany.

..Reply.. Forum 2197 Chad Jun 10 at 10:56

re: post 195 We create God in our own image. The stories of the stonings in the Bible give an example of where the Law, its interpretation, and its application had become paramount, attributed to God's will. Paul is given a paradigm-shifting epiphany that totally changes his perception of God. After that, he was no longer directing stone-throwers. We should give up our stone-throwing, violent thinking, and negativity toward others ignoring or suppressing whatever it is that is prompting us to do so. Paul finally saw the light and realized that God was not in support of such things. He essentially changed his perception from the OT God of vengeance, jealousy, and blind adherence to laws to the newer manifestation of the NT loving affirming God. It was Jesus that gave him his insight. We see God more clearly when we think and act to others in a loving way. No one deserves to be stoned in thought word or deed. We have failed as Christians if we think otherwise.

..Reply.. Forum 2196 Chad Jun 10 at 10:49

re: post 195 We do create the God in our own image. The stories of the stonings in the Bible give an example of where the Law, its interpretation, and its application had become paramount, attributed to God's will. Paul is given a paradigm-shifting epiphany that totally changes his perception of God. After that, he was no longer directing stone-throwers. We should give up our stone-throwing, violent thinking, and negativity toward others ignoring or suppressing whatever it is that is prompting us to do so. Paul finally saw the light and realized that God was not in support of such things. He essentially changed his perception from the OT God of vengeance, jelously, and blind adherence to laws to the newer manifestation of the NT loving affirming God. It was Jesus that gave him his insight. We see God more clearly when we think and act to others in a loving way. No one deserves to be stoned in thought word or deed. We have failed as Christians if we think otherwise.

..Reply.. Forum 2195 Chad Jun 08 at 12:47

re: post 188 We all throw stones if not in practice like actual violence and aggression then as a result of mental-emotional anguish and imagined hostility. Jesus said as much how we think is the same as how we act even if we don't physically carry out the action. The idea is to nip the resentment, fear, desire, and ego defensive attitude in the bud. Before we lash out we should address our mental-emotional state and see what needs our urgent attention. Resentment, fear, desire, and an ego defensive attitude do us great harm and others derive no benefit from it whatsoever. The positive change we want to see begins with us. First, we must give some careful sober thought to what it is we personally need to change.

..Reply.. Forum 2194 Lou Jun 08 at 08:26

re: post 193 well put Chad.

..Reply.. Forum 2193 Chad Jun 08 at 01:32

re: post 189 I didn't quote John, Gary. I did, however, cover Christ's message to the woman. You may want to read my post again.  Christ bears his cross. He did not back down or compromise. He never fought or resisted anyone who treated him badly. He was a disruptive unrelenting pacifist to the end. He endured humiliation and torture. He even forgave the Roman soldiers that nailed him to the cross. While on the cross he invited a thief to paradise. He was courageous and had steadfast faith. He taught us how to grow socially and spiritually, to reach beyond ourselves to be a light in the darkness. He wanted us to see a much bigger picture. He certainly didn't want us to scrobble about our unimportant ego-centered differences. He wanted us to love and care for one another. Yes, even our enemies. 

..Reply.. Forum 2192 Lou Jun 07 at 19:18

re: post 189 So you agree that it is your mandate to force people to leave their lives of sin by refusing them services and worse. Jesus never did any such thing he accepted and helped everyone without asking them to convert to Judaism or give up their profession( The Roman centurion was not asked to become a Jew, was he? ).
Christians persecute LGBTQ's, build walls against refugees, Harrass and kill birth control providers, etc instead of trying to remedy the situation.

Justin Welby, Michael Curry, Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, and many others cannot be blamed for that sort of behavior but unfortunately what appears to be a sizable majority can.

Can you point out any verse in the Gospel where Jesus tries to convert anyone or ask his disciples to convert anyone? He wants the Pharisees to relax their legalism and follow the spirit of their religion in other words to reform.

..Reply.. Forum 2191 Lou Jun 07 at 18:52

re: post 188 Completely contrary to Christ's teaching. 

..Reply.. Forum 2190 Lou Jun 07 at 18:50

re: post 189 How is post 189 a response to post 181? So whose take on the story do you like, yours?

..Reply.. Forum 2189 Gary Jun 07 at 17:49

re 181 You left out His advice in John 8:11 "Go now and leave your life of sin."   Other than that I liked your take on the story.

..Reply.. Forum 2188 Gary Jun 07 at 17:46

And daily, haters pick  stones and throw at Christians. Stick up for yourselves Christians, don't be doormats.

..Reply.. Forum 2187 Lou Jun 07 at 14:12

re: post 186 Christians react by picking up stones. Instances show up in the media almost daily.

..Reply.. Forum 2186 Chad Jun 07 at 12:41

re: post 181 The woman is not named. She has been accused but we are not given any evidence only the say-so of the accusers. The accomplice in her crime is not mentioned. He is just as guilty as she is if she is in fact guilty. She is alone and vulnerable against the self-justified intent mob that is anticipating her imminent cruel and bloody demise. This is the planned setup to discredit Jesus. He sees the situation for what it is. He takes his place with the woman. He takes his time to respond to the mob. He writes something in the sand. This pause cools their demeanor somewhat. He now has full their attention. He slowly stands. He looks at them coldly with serious intent and authority. He then speaks. His famous phrase, He who is without sin can cast the first stone. This isn't at all what the perpetrators had in mind. Jesus now has control. They are now on trial for the scheming entrapment and hypocrites that they truly are. Jesus has successfully called them out. They become sheepish and withdraw. Jesus now alone with the woman does not negatively judge her. Instead, he gives her stern compassionate advice. Although, the advice may not have been necessary.

It is a wonderful story. What I found is that you can use this story as a litmus test to see how Christians react. This story reveals the truth. 

..Reply.. Forum 2183 Lou Jun 06 at 15:21

re: post 180 

The accusers themselves subtly misrepresented the law. The Mosaic law stated that in the case of adultery, both the man and woman must be put to death (<

..Reply.. Forum 2182 Lou Jun 06 at 15:15

re: post 181 The following is not given as an answer to your question but as a statement of what I deeply believe or rather know.

Without the Lord, we would not be. Period! 

..Reply.. Forum 2181 Gary Jun 06 at 12:02

One angle mentioned was it a setup? They were really after Jesus and through this women thought they could get to Him.  We also talked about this story could apply to any sin.  As to the homeless guys time will tell. One fellow saw Jesus in a dream or a vision calling him. The other said sinful pride was his downfall and saw a humility in Jesus that he like. It's always a good meeting, when you see potential growth in new people and the challenge they face you can't help but cheer them on.  Whether they come back, the seed is planted.

In my Bible I have a question written down, 'Where would I be now without the Lord?'

..Reply.. Forum 2180 Chad Jun 06 at 09:46

re: post 179 Sounds interesting Gary, I wonder why the man wasn't caught in adultery. It takes two to tango. Both were just as guilty under the Jewish law at the time. That particular passage is one of the most interesting in the NT. I can be looked at from many perspectives. You had a certain way of looking at that passage prior to the study. Did you change your position at all? 

Did the homeless fellows fit in? Were they able to engage with the actual study in a meaningful way? Do you think they will be back for the next study? Why do you think they thought it was important what others in their group thought about Jesus? Did they say? Why was it a good meeting? Was it because the homeless people were there? Just curious.  

..Reply.. Forum 2179 Lou Jun 06 at 08:49

re: post 178 Trying to help people in need is what Jesus asked us to do and showed us with examples and parables.
I suggest that instead of mentioning it to their friends they should try to help their friend which I doubt would be met with hate.
If Christians were to follow Christ's command and example and help others, especially when asked, instead of trying to impose their views on others there would be fewer negative feelings towards Christianity.

I hope someone will follow up and help them.

..Reply.. Forum 2178 Lou Jun 06 at 08:27

New topic: Gary shared that with us:

At the Bible Study two new homeless fellows that are in a shelter attended, very interesting, both were searching for a better way. They saw Kit one day with his collar on and asked for his help in meeting Jesus. We were looking at the woman caught in adultry which puts Jesus right in the middle. They both seemed to know that Christ may be the answer  but anytime they mentioned it to their friends they were met with hate. One fellow showed us 3 or 4 stab wounds he received while living on the street.  Anyway Lou, sorry to put this here, but it was a good meeting, wanted to share..

..Reply.. Forum 2177 Chad Jun 03 at 14:42

re: post 176 If you agree with Jordan Peterson and others, it appears we perceive what is there only superficially. We perceive what we are directed to perceive by protocols set in our subconscious and mental processing programs. We can't perceive everything. Only a small smidgen of what is real/imagined is allowed to penetrate our consciousness. The rest needs to be filtered out instantly and constantly. We are prisoners of our own biased perceptions. That is why we need openly and attentively listen to others to tell us their perceptions. It will help us to fill in the gaps we have filtered out. Our doors of perception are problematic when we are attempting to grok something substantial. We may by design and/or necessity be screening out the most important details. We should be aware and wary of how we have perceived things. The most important things should be reconsidered and critiqued through the lens of other views pro and con on an ongoing basis. There may not be a definitive answer but there may be better ways of looking at things

..Reply.. Forum 2176 Chad Jun 02 at 15:17

We are most important as reliable witnesses. It is important to observe things as they actually are as clear as we possibly can. We must continually clear the windshield of debris. 

..Reply.. Forum 2175 Chad Jun 01 at 14:50

re: post 174 Inspiration focus and grounding come from the people who follow the light and the love that emanates from it. They not only profess the light but also act out the light that's in them. Humility and love point us towards the light. Ego and desire point us to darkness.

Those children that were slaughtered were our children. They were not unfortunate others. They are ours. They are God's.

..Reply.. Forum 2174 Chad Jun 01 at 10:27

re: post 171 My comments are thoughts that came to me while listening to Rev. Curry's sermon regarding the Texas murders. The light and the love are always present. We lose our focus when we get caught up in the rational arguments and emotional responses that justify our earthly indignation and soothe our fragile egos. Jesus said, be the light, Become the love that is absent elsewhere. We need to build bridges and not walls.

..Reply.. Forum 2171 Chad May 31 at 18:37

God point Lou. I didn't link it into the thread properly. I apologize. 

..Reply.. Forum 2173 Lou May 31 at 16:49

re: post 172 That critical analysis of scripture is not what you say elsewhere that you realized is required. 

..Reply.. Forum 2172 Lou May 31 at 16:41

New topic: I see Peter being beckoned by Christ. Christ says I need your full faith and love. Peter is always willing but gets distracted by doubt, fear, and self-preservation. He fails and continually fails to give his whole heart and soul to the physical Christ in his presence. 
Chad, this comment about the Gospel reading is obviously a new topic so why not post it that way!

..Reply.. Forum 2170 Lou May 31 at 08:59

re: post 169 A think tank should be set up to find a political system where that could not happen. Impossible, probably. Plato had a way but the politicians can possibly accept it.
A way to remove the influence of money and other incentives has to be found.

..Reply.. Forum 2169 Chad May 30 at 17:43

re: post 168 Some of the resistance to change may be artificial and monetary in its nature. Several lawmakers in the states have been paid huge sums to stay the course. For example, it is reported that Mitch McConnell received 13 million from the NRA to garner his support in squelching laws pertaining to gun restriction and regulation. In the States, this isn't considered a bribe. There are others that have received more than a million dollars each. With a hole this big in the bucket it's no wonder any legislation can't take hold. Mitch McConnell is a Baptist. It would seem, from my limited perspective, that he missed the point of Matthews's chapter 18:6. 

..Reply.. Forum 2168 Chad May 28 at 18:31

re: post 167 After looking into it a bit it would seem that these incidents are increasing. There is enough evidence and public support for lawmakers in the United States to take this issue seriously. There must be a good reason for their non-action.

..Reply.. Forum 2167 Chad May 28 at 13:54

re: post 166 They are not the worst country by far but they are in the top 5. Apparently, they lead the way in school shootings. I read that is something like 288 since 2009. There are enough school killings to send a strong message to school children and their teachers. I'm not sure if the teachers can talk about such things openly.  At any rate, I am saddened and prayerful for the parents, family, and friends of those that are suffering.


..Reply.. Forum 2166 Lou May 28 at 10:52

re: post 165 what I saw is the rate of gun deaths in the US is 6 times worse than in Canada and 12 times worse than in Australia (a country settled by criminals!). It's a lot more than "seems like a lot).

..Reply.. Forum 2165 Chad May 28 at 09:43

re: post 164 Thanks Lou, when you see the statistics it gives a different perspective. It seems like a lot of gun deaths in the States because they are sensational and get press, but actually, it is only a very small proportion of the population that is affected. We can change our perspective with some valid information.

In 2020, 45,222 people died from gun-related injuries, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — about 124 people each day. Of those, 54% were suicides, and 43% were murdered, according to a Pew Research Center analysis.

..Reply.. Forum 2164 Lou May 28 at 08:05

re: post 163 

Countries with the Highest Total Gun Deaths (all causes) in 2019

  1. Brazil (49436)
  2. United States (37038)
  3. Venezuela (28515)
  4. Mexico (22116)
  5. India (14710)
  6. Colombia (13169)
  7. <

..Reply.. Forum 2163 Chad May 27 at 16:55

Some churches still don't allow firearms but it seems the majority do.

I find it interesting and a bit disturbing that a town of 16,000 in Texas The town where the shooting occurred has a 16-member well-armed swat team. It was created for this type of incident. It took the authorities an hour to respond. I'm being cynical again. Using their logic. They would have been there sooner if they had the use of modern military aircraft. At any rate, their military strategy failed miserably. I suppose now they will have no choice but to double the swat team's manpower. Also, increase the arsenal of weaponry available to them.

I guess sometimes you have to be smart enough to see how stupid you are.

I may be overreacting. I think they would likely have the swat team come and visit me if they knew what I was saying. How dare I question their God I mean guns. 

..Reply.. Forum 2162 Lou May 27 at 15:45

re: post 161 According to the Americans is to arm the teachers in the schools and the congregation in churches. I am not making that up I have heard that said on the news.

..Reply.. Forum 2161 Chad May 27 at 14:04

re: post 160 If my children or grandchildren were gunned down. I don't know how much solace I would get knowing that the right to buy A-15 military assault was secure and protected by the constitution. The politicians will say our hearts and prayers go out to the victims. I ask, could anyone dare ask for more? Being cynical for a moment. It might be a good idea for the President to stand with the grieving parents to offer his deepest condolences and let them know how frustrated he is about his inability to do anything. His hands are tied. 

Already, I have spent too much time on my own self-inflicted consternation I'm not there. My scope and knowledge are limited. Others will know more and make better observations.   

..Reply.. Forum 2160 Chad May 27 at 13:27

I know some Americans. They take these various issues in stride. One media outlet from Boston had only one tweet about the 21 people killed the other day. Mass shootings are not newsworthy unless they set some record. I suppose if things are Ok in your immediate area they are OK everywhere. It appears it's a benefit not to pay any attention to details. The exception would be the gory newsworthy stuff, that, if extreme enough, may penetrate the social anxiety and numbness at least for a moment, maybe a tweet or two. Based on previous incidents some will buy another more powerful gun just to be on the safe side. Some will pray.

These observations are based on my limitations as a biased observer I'm sure they will appear totally different, to others.

..Reply.. Forum 2159 Chad May 27 at 10:53

From my limited perspective, it seems that some Americans That is USA people hate each other. One group, in particular, wants to control the narrative for the whole country. It seems to me they have a winning strategy for doing so. Just a bit of a rant on my part. Just ignore me.

..Reply.. Forum 2158 Chad May 26 at 22:54

Thanks, Lou, I should have said my perspective. It is my perception and understanding that is limited. I was too general.

..Reply.. Forum 2157 Chad May 26 at 19:15

Thanks, Lou, I should have said my perspective. It is my perception and understanding that is limited. I was too general.

..Reply.. Forum 2156 Lou May 26 at 15:05

re: post 155 What and whose perspective?

..Reply.. Forum 2155 Chad May 26 at 13:45

re: post 152 We are bound, you could even argue imprisoned, to our universe by our perceptions They are demonstratively quite limited. Therefore our own understanding is limited, Our common understanding is very limited. I appreciate that you are willing to share your perspective. I will try to listen better.

..Reply.. Forum 2153 Chad May 26 at 11:17

..Reply.. Forum 2154 Lou May 26 at 10:54

re: post 153 That belongs on panel 1.

..Reply.. Forum 2152 Chad May 24 at 16:15

re: post 148 Gary, I have no control or authority. My words are just words. Please ignore them.

..Reply.. Forum 2148 Gary May 24 at 07:48

"We should all start to live before we get too old.  Fear is stupid.  So are regrets."       --Marilyn Monroe--    Chad kinda fits in with 146.   Lou why is box so big?

..Reply.. Forum 2151 Lou May 24 at 07:46

re: post 148 I was gonna ask you the same thing. It's probable from what you copied. You should have canceled and tried the copying again. 

..Reply.. Forum 2150 Chad May 23 at 23:27

re: post 148 Gary, I have no control or authority. My words are just words. Please ignore them.

..Reply.. Forum 2149 Chad May 23 at 17:03

re: post 148

Good Example, Gary, MM lived to the ripe old age of 36 and supposedly died of a drug overdose. At any rate, you are not getting my point. I don't fear Covid. I very much prefer to not get it. Like I said if you are getting together be careful and take the recommended precautions. I'm sure you don't want to be responsible for spreading the disease. That's not fear That's just common sense. Covid is on the rise again. I agree with Marilyn don't live in fear and don't be stupid. Maybe she didn't have any regrets.

..Reply.. Forum 2147 Chad May 20 at 23:15

re: post 146  You may do alright against the virus those you infect may not be so lucky.

..Reply.. Forum 2146 Gary May 20 at 21:29

Not living in fear any more, if I am going to get it,  it will probably be at the gym. Only time I wore a mask this month was at a funeral. Something eventually will take us out, live life, love your neighbour, just don't kiss him, I mean them.

..Reply.. Forum 2145 Chad May 20 at 13:39

re: post 144 I love getting together to shoot the breeze. On the other hand, Covid is spiking again. Please be careful and take all the precautions, when you have your get-togethers. Even if you are fully vaccinated Covid can still strike. It's no joke and long-term covid is far from funny or being trivial.

..Reply.. Forum 2144 Gary May 20 at 10:53

Where 2 or 3 are gathered together in My name I am in the midst of them.  Matt. 18:20.  Lou will save you a seat Wed.  

..Reply.. Forum 2143 Lou May 20 at 09:30

re: post 142 I agree with what Chad is saying here. 

..Reply.. Forum 2142 Chad May 20 at 08:48

re: post 140 Gary, I have commented on sermons not only from Christ Church but from many other churches. During Covid, everyone needed to stay home and watch the services from their computer. As far as I am concerned Covid is still here.

You may be overemphasizing the need to attend a brick-and-mortar institution especially when multi-services are available on a screen. I think you will agree it isn't where you go and what you do. It's who you are that is important. If we try to live up to the principles and follow Christ's example then we are glorifying Christ.  We treat everyone with respect and in friendship. Hopefully, our Christian principles are ingrained and automatic. We affirm others when we attentively listen to them and accept them for who they are. Everyone has something important to tell us. Our own point of view is not that important.

That is the way I see it. This is one way to proceed. There are probably better ways to go about it.  Any Comments?

..Reply.. Forum 2141 Lou May 20 at 08:36

re: post 140 Thanks for your concern. It's doing well. My atheist ( not really the correct word. More like simply disappointed with Christianity.) friend already follows Christ's commands and helps his neighbors. 
I don't know where he stands in his relationship with Jesus and it is none of my business all I have to go by is how he behaves.   

Gary, Matt 7:21-23 True and False Disciples 
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 

..Reply.. Forum 2140 Gary May 20 at 06:47

One more thing, Lou how is your knee coming along? Hope your walking and doing your exercises.  Sitting in front of a computer doesn't sound like church to me, but to each his own.  You might like the communion service on the first Wednesday of the month at 10 am. Very quiet and orderly. I have been to that one.

Do you ever share the good news with your athiest friend?  Be nice when he becomes your Christian friend.

..Reply.. Forum 2139 Chad May 19 at 18:15

re: post 135

Gary, I appreciate your need for closure and control. You are welcome to comment at any time. Unfortunately, we can't give you the last word. The forum is not designed to do that. ;-) 

Please accept reply 136 as a token of silence after your last post. 

..Reply.. Forum 2138 Lou May 19 at 18:01

re: post 136 I agree wholeheartedly.

..Reply.. Forum 2137 Lou May 19 at 18:00

re: post 135 next time you ask to be given the final word  I'll make sure you get it.

..Reply.. Forum 2136 Chad May 19 at 17:57



..Reply.. Forum 2135 Gary May 19 at 09:27

Thanks for the comments but I already said thanks for giving me the final word, no reply was neccesary.

..Reply.. Forum 2134 Lou May 19 at 09:27

re: post 133 Well said Chad. Gary, please bring up any issue you have one at a time so they can be dealt with. 
Not that it is any of  business,Gary, but nowadays I go to church online since I have a hard time walking. Did you forget to ask me how my knee was healing, my atheist friend did!

..Reply.. Forum 2133 Chad May 18 at 17:53

re: post 127

Gary you said My issue is there are daily reading from the Gospels on the opening page, that's great but then they get twisted apart to suit you know who.  I'm not 100 on what you mean. I think you mean that we may interpret things differently that we see on the front page and elsewhere. That must be the twist you are talking about. I accept the scripture as it is. I don't feel it is right to delibertalely misquote or to speak falsley of scripture. It is what it is. I don't know the "you know who" are referring to. Is it me? 

I agree Tutu is human also recently deceased. I think we agree he was a good man. We are all sinners. I understand the concept. I don't look for sin or sinners. it isn't a very affirming way to recognize or lable people. I'm not saying you are wrong if that is your preference.

The Dalai Lama loves Christians and Christ. He also has a strange sense of humour. It suits him 

Gary, you said, Don't know how the website can be labeled Christchurch men when neither of you believes in going to church.  Anyway, my rant, my life, thanks for letting me have the last word!        ;-)

Lou is in control of naming the site, "Christchurch Men" is OK by me, but it could have any name Lou wants.

Neither of you believes in going to church. It is my understanding that Lou still attends church. I don't, mostly because I can't in good consciousness say the creeds. I don't believe some of the statements. I don't think they are necessary.  We can talk about that if you want. Otherwise, the church is OK. I like all the people and their company. They are good people. The best time for me is the coffee hour.

Your rants are very welcome. You have a very interesting life from what I know of it. You keep surprising me with tantilizing details. ;-)

..Reply.. Forum 2132 Lou May 18 at 15:24

re: post 131 Well said! I was planning to add something but there's really no need. I can't understand how Gary could disagree with any of it but Gary if you disagree with anything bring it out or anything else you want to bring to our attention.
If you want to quote someone please do it in the lower right panel.


..Reply.. Forum 2131 Chad May 18 at 13:32

re: post 130 It isn't that it is wrong is it? It's just that it doesn't feel right or fit very well with what I believe to be true. That is how things are. We could all say this. Some of our beliefs may be true. Some may be false. Some may be changeable. There is no need to get upset. Our beliefs may feel important or even sacred. We can talk about these concepts we have in our heads. I think the main point I want to make is that beliefs will differ from person to person. Let's learn from one another in friendship and respect, without fear. The best thing that can happen is that we realize that we have been wrong. We can learn something from the experience. None of us are experts or sages. Relax. 

..Reply.. Forum 2130 Chad May 18 at 10:37

re: post 129  Gary, I am not against your point of view. However, I have my own point of view which I hope is still changeable. There are principles that Christ taught that have been time-tested to be true and life-affirming not just for Christians. Fortunately, the Gospels and the NT writing were recorded. Unfortunately, we don't know for sure what was missed or was added. We do know that all the writing was written at an elevated level. That is to say, it was written with passion. It was put forth with the desire to reveal and convince others of their knowledge and perception of Christ's ministry. Christ didn't document anything partly because he was the story. There was no story until he lived out his full ministry. Gary, What would you like to add, subtract, and or edit? 

..Reply.. Forum 2129 Lou May 18 at 09:44

re: post 127 " Unlike you Chad I am comfortable where I am, that is not a put-down. " Maybe it's not a put-down but it's definitively judgmental.
It is obvious and spiritually healthy that you are comfortable where you are and I apologize if I ever said anything to endanger that.
I can't speak for Chad but I am quite comfortable - not quite the right term but it will have to do - with the Christianity of Michael Curry, Desmond Tutu, and others where love and service instead of coercion and wall building is the way.
In the Gospel, Jesus shows us by example how we are to care for everyone and everything we come into contact with. We are to care for refugees without erecting barriers against them, for instance. If you disagree with that please state your case.

..Reply.. Forum 2128 Lou May 18 at 08:44

re: post 127 More evidence or your judgemental attitude. Chad and I never claim the last word.
Where do you get the idea that I don't believe in going to church - another judgment on your part? 
"Tutu's human, we are all sinners, Dalai Lama's funny, needs(sic) Christ. " that statement is judgemental stating that you said that is not judgmental but simply a statement of fact.
My saying that Pat, John, and you claim to be better Christian than the archbishop is not a judgment but a statement of fact that can be gathered from what you have posted on this website and the fact that John left Christ Church because we accept everyone regardless of sexual orientation.

A forum is for exchanging ideas it is not to pass judgment on each other. When we, or you, post something we expect comments on what we think of the idea, after having read it carefully and understood what was meant - which we all too often fail to do. When you read something you disagree with simply tell us why.

..Reply.. Forum 2127 Gary May 18 at 07:23

My issue is there are daily reading from the Gospels on the opening page, that's great but then they get twisted apart to suit you know who.  Tutu's human, we are all sinners, Dalai Lama's funny, needs Christ. As far as sharing bread with Gentiles, don't know what you are talking about? Unlike you Chad I am comfortable where I am, that is not a put down. It just seems like the two of you have not found your comfortable spot within Christianity.

Don't know how the web site can be labeled christchurch men when neither of you believe in going to church.  Any way my rant, my life, thanks for letting me have the last word!        ;-)

PS:Have to go pick up John W. We are sharing bread together, and coffee this morning.           

..Reply.. Forum 2126 Chad May 17 at 20:34

re: post 125 Gary, it doesn't matter how many people are in your corner. I am alone in my corner. I don't need affirmation. I stand by my comments not to argue but to learn. I am willing to change my position if you can convince me that I am wrong. What is your issue?

..Reply.. Forum 2125 Lou May 17 at 20:25

re: post 123 Gary, did you not, on this very website, condemn Desmond Tutu's acceptance of homosexuality?
Did you not repeatedly state that the Dalai Lama, Chad, and I, among others, are lost?  
Do you not refuse to share bread with us gentiles?


..Reply.. Forum 2124 Chad May 17 at 20:08

re: post 123 Gary, Lou was responding to my post where I mentioned you and Pat.  I was telling the truth. You are taking the defensive role which I said you would. You can voice criticism of the church and its dogma. If you follow my post you will see that I glorified Christ.

..Reply.. Forum 2123 Gary May 17 at 19:06

I take offence Lou, I would say maybe your not a very good Christian, you are very judgemental. I certainly would rather have John, Pat, Andy,  and Alistair Begg in my corner. you wonder why I don't join in here more often, it's too one sided and twisted.

..Reply.. Forum 2122 Lou May 17 at 18:40

re: post 121 You are right some Christians do get it. Archbishops admit that Christianity has done terrible things in the past and still does.
Gary and Pat are better Christians than Tutu, Curry, Welby, etc. or so they think. What they call Love the world could do without. 

The churches need to acknowledge that bad things were done and do everything possible to make sure the teaching of Christ is what guides them in the future.

..Reply.. Forum 2121 Chad May 17 at 11:52

re: post 120 Gary and Pat have asked me why I criticize Christianity. I guess my question to them is why don't they do the same? We should perceive things as they are in our time in our society. Christianity was corrupted as soon as men took it over. It is no longer the language of Christ. The Roman influence created a religion of conquest, exploitation, and power. Christ's message is still there hidden in the dogma. He was a humble pedestrian living and proclaiming the beatitudes. He never held a weapon nor did he need one. his only power came from love. He never coerced anyone he led only by example. His crown was one made from thorns, not gold and precious gems. He turned down his tempter so he had a clear vision of his ministry. Even after death and resurrection, he maintained his demeanor.  

There are some Christians who get this, but not many. 

..Reply.. Forum 2120 Chad May 16 at 20:45

re: post 119 I agree, Lou. The Everyone's Welcome signs are a lie. They may be displayed with good intention. They should really list the credentials required for membership. If you look, think, and act like me then you are most welcome. That would be a more honest sign. Christ's teachings have to be learned and followed with love if they are to be effective and affirming. The OT God is nothing like the NT God as you have suggested. Western religion is all about focusing on differences and division. 

..Reply.. Forum 2119 Lou May 16 at 18:52

re: post 118 The problem you're talking about, and I agree is very real, stems from the jealous Abrahamic God who will have no other god and mandates his follower to bring everyone else to him by force if necessary or destroy if force won't do it as opposed from the Eastern religion's God who says that everyone is welcome to worship any god they wish and be rewarded by them they are worshipping Him anyway the one true God.

The benefit of the Abramic view is that the Christians easily conquered ( and raped )  India, Australia, America, etc.

..Reply.. Forum 2118 Chad May 16 at 15:35

re: post 117 It's all there. There is no excuse or benefit from being anti-social. This wisdom goes back as far as it can go back and further. You don't have to be religious to be stupidly anti-social but it seems to be an important factor for a lot of people. The easily manipulated mindless mob, religious or not, will be the end of us. The shame of it all is that the sacred teachings are so basic and simple to learn.

..Reply.. Forum 2117 Lou May 16 at 14:43

re: post 116 "We may have superficial differences, and our beliefs vary. However, our internal innate spiritual natures are identical." True.

The Vedic religions( Hinduism, Buddism, etc ) have at their core the Perennial Philosophy(P.P.) so they debate about religion but they don't fight over it the way the Abrahamic religions do. Countries fight each other but not about religion.

I doubt that the paradigm of our Western civilization can be shifted no matter how much P.P. we learn which is probably impossible beyond an intellectual approval of it as an ideal in the way we treat the Sermon on the Mount.

But each individual can take it past intellectual and emotional understanding and really absorb it and be guided by it in all things. In other words, to live the Sermon on the Mount and the Eight Fold Path ( not the Pharisaic way but Jesus' way).

..Reply.. Forum 2116 Chad May 13 at 12:07

re: post 115 From the start of our human species we were a small group that developed in the African savanna. That small band eventually grew and spread over the globe. Our expression of our spirituality followed us along changing as we changed culturally. We told one another stories about our perceptions, real and imagined, of the mysteries present in the environment. These stories would change depending on the environment we happened to live in. We repeated and retold those stories that eventually defined each developing society. We have always known that there were forces at work that we couldn't control or create. Somewhere way back in our most primitive form, when we were the closest to being one with the environment, probably back in Africa, someone said the first prayer to appeal to the unknown and known forces of the Universe. That was the beginning of our relationship with the gods.

We may have superficial differences, and our beliefs vary. However, our internal innate spiritual natures are identical.

..Reply.. Forum 2115 Chad May 10 at 15:16

re: post 114 I think Perennial Philosophy could be the glue needed to create a paradigm shift in our focus. We all came from the same source. However, we are determined to create differences where none exist or if there are differences they are of a superficial nature. Every time we lose sight of this basic truism we get into societal conflicts. We also lose sight of our dependency on the living and flourishing natural world. We have an exploitive rather than symbiotic relationship. My point about our patriarchal privileged society is that it is artificially insisted upon even after others have told us isn't working for them. There may be reasons in the past that naturally divided activities. However, Those divisions were artificial and not meant to create an actual divide and subordination. We are still not listening properly to others. We still feel the earth is ours for the taking and squandering.

..Reply.. Forum 2114 Lou May 10 at 09:53

re: post 110
Your post 110 is really a new topic and I am treating it as such.
You open with a very good question. A question that The Perennial Philosophy helps to answer. It all depends on one's point of view.

..Reply.. Forum 2113 Lou May 10 at 09:48

re: post 104, 107, 109 
You don't mean to be critical but that is how it comes across. You are saying that our culture and our religion are patriarchal and confining and that is true. 

I suggest that it happens that way because females were too busy tending to the home and to dozens of children until about 70 or so years ago to find time to think about the workings of society let alone of the universe and of the gods. Some males on the other hand end up having leisure time to ponder such things and will, of course, see things from their point of view.

As far as religion and culture being confining rules and regulations are needed to build community and help keep it together. I agree that testing the boundaries are needed to deal with changing circumstances and to improve things.

 I agree with you, mostly.

..Reply.. Forum 2112 Lou May 10 at 07:46

re: post 109 In the quote panels we reply to the latest posts unless we want to post something new. 

In the forum, we are trying to have a conversation so we use Reply to indicate what we are responding to without having to repeat what was said. We also get to edit our posts if needed. I cannot understand why that doesn't make sense.

The idea is that we read each other posts and try to really understand what was meant and then respond to it( using Reply helps with that).

..Reply.. Forum 2111 Chad May 09 at 20:42

re: post 110 Everything we believe has been handed down from others. Somethings stand the test of time better than others. Old must be better than new?

..Reply.. Forum 2110 Chad May 09 at 14:03

re: post 109Is there anything that exists outside our perception and imagination? When we say something is newly discovered, what do we mean? Are we saying it was meaningless and non-existent prior to our discovery? Does it prove the necessity of a human observer? What does discover mean? Is it something that has been hidden that has suddenly been revealed? Is everything that is unknowable present we just need a way to reveal it? Are there things that can not be known because of our human limitations? In the grand scheme of things, we may not be all that smart and or perceptive. A poet, prophet, or artist of any sort can't tell us anything new. They can just create new ways of expressing things already known or imagined.

Just some thoughts that came to me after creating my previous post.

..Reply.. Forum 2109 Chad May 09 at 12:12

I thought we had agreed that if the response was directly related to the previous comment the reply button was not required. I will use the reply button from now on.

You said:

The way I see it is that all religions and dogmas are created by the thinkers/philosophers/scientists of the culture trying to make sense of what they observe in nature and in society with the instruments they have access to only their senses and their minds in the distant past.

I agree with you. It is all a social activity. Everything needs to be perceived, defined and explained then reconsidered, redefined, and further explained. We can not escape this loop of imperfect human perception. that is how society awkwardly and inconsistently progresses. In a way, it is like slowly moving tectonic plates that grind past one another. There is always resistance. At times there is a major build-up of resistance and pressure that will inevitably be released and then the plates will return to a state of continually grinding away at one another. Can something exist if it can't be perceived by humans?  

..Reply.. Forum 2108 Lou May 09 at 08:36

re: post 107 "The rest of your post I more or less agree with" The only thing I questioned is the meaning of the statement "There is no definitive religion or dogma created by man. There is only the illusion of perfection."

Your post 107 is a response to my post 106 why didn't you use the reply option?

..Reply.. Forum 2107 Chad May 08 at 09:29

It wasn't meant to be critical. I was just stating it as I perceive it. What did I say that was not true? We are a patriarchal society. There is an imbalance that favors the underlying conditions necessary for a patriarchal society to exist. This has been especially true in the church. We have said in the past that they did the best they could with what they had. That is true if you are a man in a patriarchal society that was designed to be so. Our undeserved privilege has been built into the system all along. This isn't meant to be harsh. What I am saying was there was intent in the design of the system that was other than ultraistic and spiritual. Look the men have always had the bigger club and the stronger arms. 

..Reply.. Forum 2106 Lou May 08 at 08:38

re: post 104 "There is no definitive religion or dogma created by man. There is only the illusion of perfection." I wonder what you mean by this.
The way I see it is that all religions and dogmas are created by the thinkers/philosophers/scientists of the culture trying to make sense of what they observe in nature and in society with the instruments they have access to only their senses and their minds in the distant past.
The rest of your post I more or less agree with even though it is unnecessarily critical.

..Reply.. Forum 2105 Lou May 07 at 15:37

re: post 101 I don't know if you made it to that point in listening to The Perennial Philosophy but I found the idea that I quoted a good candidate for why Christianity and Islam are so intolerant of other religions.

The Hebrews went further by totally illuminating any culture/religion that got in their way with the blessing, at the command or so they say, of their jealous God. The point is that all these religious wars, I forgot the Inquisition and the Crusades, are justified if not mandated by that god.

I don't read any sign of that in the Gospels. I one of you sees Jesus condemning other religions please point it out to me.

..Reply.. Forum 2104 Chad May 07 at 15:22

There is no definitive religion or dogma created by man. There is only the illusion of perfection. That we, for the most part, have accepted. We have taken what we have been given by the men who have created and sustained it over time. Like everything else man-made it is flawed. However, there is a significant value at its core that is not artificial. Despite its strong patriarchal leanings and imbalance, it was all we had or could have for centuries. People offering alternatives to what the intolerable church said was acceptable were dealt with harshly and often cruelly tortured. Even though in retrospect these individuals were stating simple truths. What was hailed as faultless and flawless was riddled with self-serving hypocrisy and lies. We need to be aware of these shortcomings. On the other hand, we should recognize the insightful people who have been able to see through the imperfections to the spiritual core. These people find their way to a deeper spiritual reality and meaning. They are the ones we should be listening to. 

..Reply.. Forum 2103 Lou May 07 at 15:09

re: post 102 is not a reply to post 101 and that is ok but I was looking for input from you guys on the idea brought up there.

..Reply.. Forum 2102 Chad May 07 at 13:42

Christianity has deliberately excluded, denied, and stifled many voices. For instance, women and other minorities were not allowed to write Biblical texts until recently preach from them. Essentially Christianity is a white heterosexual man's creation and institution. That alone has caused it to divert from the inclusiveness that should have naturally occurred from Christ's teaching. Even Christ was mild in his confrontation and critique of his own patriarchial society. However, he treated women, children, and his enemies as equals. 

..Reply.. Forum 2101 Lou May 07 at 11:56

Because Christians believed that there had been only one Avatar, Christian history has been disgraced by more and bloodier crusades, interdenominational wars, persecutions, and proselytizing imperialism than has the history of Hinduism and Buddhism. Absurd and idolatrous doctrines, affirming the quasi-divine nature of sovereign states and their rulers, have led oriental, no less than Western, peoples into innumerable political wars; but because they have not believed in an exclusive revelation at one sole instant of time, or in the quasi-divinity of an ecclesiastical organization, oriental peoples have kept remarkably clear of the mass murder for religion’s sake, which has been so dreadfully frequent in Christendom. And while, in this important respect, the level of public morality has been lower in the West than in the East, the levels of exceptional sanctity and of ordinary individual morality have not, so far as one can judge from the available evidence, been any higher. If the tree is indeed known by its fruits, Christianity’s departure from the norm of the Perennial Philosophy would seem to be philosophically unjustifiable.

Huxley, Aldous. The Perennial Philosophy (pp. 50-51). Harper Perennial. Kindle Edition. 

..Reply.. Forum 2100 Chad May 06 at 14:12

I can't prove you wrong nor do I want to. I think a downward spiral happens when that which is spiritually uplifting gets mixed with fear, ignorance, negative emotions, and desires. There are more superfluous things in the West to divide us if we focus on differences and scarcity.

..Reply.. Forum 299 Lou May 06 at 11:06

I suggest that the likes of the war in Ukraine, the War in Syria, the Holocaust, Reformation time RC Protestant killings, Pogroms, and other such incidents have never happened in the East where the Vedic view prevails. Prove me wrong if you can. I claim the worldview that originated in the Middle East is the cause of that sort of coercion.

..Reply.. Forum 298 Lou May 06 at 07:46

The reading today ( Matt 5:13-16 Salt and Light ) tells us to preach with our life, with how we love and serve others and our environment: less talk more action. 

..Reply.. Forum 297 Chad May 05 at 00:37

Ephesians 3:20. Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine.

I take from this that God through us is beyond anything we can imagine. I don't think I should limit God, do you? 

..Reply.. Forum 296 Lou May 04 at 19:27

This forum is to discuss ideas and even public figures but not each other.
If I have ever passed judgment on you or Chad please remind me of it and I'll apologize.

..Reply.. Forum 295 Lou May 04 at 19:12

re: post 92 Gary, please keep your comments about my view to what you read on the front page of the website but please do comment on what you like or dislike about it. I know you already said there was too much Gospel but, too bad, that won't change. Anything else I'll explain or change.

..Reply.. Forum 294 Lou May 04 at 18:58

re: post 92 Your view of God is the OT view where following the law comes ahead of helping others, where God is not absolute Love as stated by Gail.
My view of God is Jesus' as recorded in the Gospels where God is Love and asks us to follow his example and sacrifice ourselves for the good of others.

..Reply.. Forum 293 Chad May 04 at 16:33

Ephesians 3:20. Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine.

I take from this that God through us is beyond anything we can imagine. I don't think I should limit God, do you? 

..Reply.. Forum 292 Gary May 04 at 15:04

Lou you must be speaking of yourself here.  You and Chad have a twisty God that looks nothing like the God of the Bible.

..Reply.. Forum 291 Lou May 04 at 15:00

We should always keep in mind that it is our view of God that should be relevant; God is and doesn't change to accommodate anyone believer or unbeliever. Problems arise when one view of God is forced on others.

..Reply.. Forum 290 Chad May 04 at 11:18

We live in a global, electronic, and instant society. God should be relevant to our new global society and its trials, tribulations, and goodness.

..Reply.. Forum 289 Lou May 02 at 13:18

re: post 88 What kind of God do we need now! 

We can only search our souls for the answer to that.

..Reply.. Forum 288 Chad May 02 at 10:07

I like your question, Lou. What kind of God do we need now? 

..Reply.. Forum 287 Lou Apr 30 at 14:56

re: post 86 All we can do is imagine our best qualities infinitely magnified. That is what every culture does in its own way. The Hebrews needed a warrior God, the Christians needed a redeemer God: what kind of God do we need now?

..Reply.. Forum 286 Chad Apr 30 at 11:50

re: post 85 God can be defined. The word God can be looked up in a dictionary and we can read the definition. Are the words in the dictionary or even the Bible equivalent to the entity we are talking about. If this is true we could say God is a formulation of certain words. If God is more than what has been defined, then tell me in certain terms what is missing?

..Reply.. Forum 285 Chad Apr 30 at 10:49

re: post 84 It is only natural to want to define God in human terms. That is how we perceive the world. However, can we let our limited human perceptions define something that is admittedly beyond our wildest imagination? In a personal and social context, we can perceive God and define God through stories that bring God and people together in a nurturing and loving way. However, we know there is something beyond this human context that we don't understand and maybe we are too human to do so.   

..Reply.. Forum 284 Chad Apr 30 at 09:32
Gail asked me to define my understanding of God. The way I view creation is influenced by the idea that literally everything in the Universe is made from the same basic stuff, that includes me. None of the basic stuff is man-made nor can man destroy it. I am an infinitesimal speck of the universe within an ever-changing and changeable Universe. That is something I can perceive but can't control.

..Reply.. Forum 283 Chad Apr 29 at 15:21

re: post 82 I like your response, Lou. There are those that are sensitive enough to perceive and understand the path. We are told. We hear the words if we were listening. We ignore, and can't comprehend and or don't believe them. That is who we are. Yet, we are all loved by God as his children despite our shortcomings. Whereas we can and do give up on people and ourselves God won't. Let's focus on the unconditional love of God rather than the sins of man. Hopefully, we can still find the path. We still have time to act.

..Reply.. Forum 282 Lou Apr 29 at 12:03

re: post 81 A  better way of looking at it is that God calls us and we refuse to respond, we don't even listen.

..Reply.. Forum 281 Chad Apr 28 at 18:38

re: post 80 That is one way of looking at it. I don't see the advantage of framing people in negativity. Jesus gave us the beatitudes. He described people in a positive way. He also called us his sheep, him being the shepherd. I recognize you as a friend. I don't think of you as a sinner.

..Reply.. Forum 280 Gary Apr 28 at 17:16

re: post 79  All people in the world are not evil, but all people in the world are sinners, agree?

..Reply.. Forum 279 Chad Apr 28 at 15:43

re: post 78 Jesus through John is talking in an indirect manner. In my opinion, He is using the world in an unusual way. The word world is used in this case to represent the people who are the evildoers and schemers in his immediate domain. He is aware that there is a plot to target and kill him but not his followers.

There are evil-doers today that have a self-interest in their hearts that are willing to commit evil deeds to satisfy their self-interest. They will target and eliminate whoever gives them opposition. Just as they did in Christ's time.

Gary, if you are saying there are evildoers and schemers in the world today I will agree with you. If you are saying that all the people in the world are evil I can't.

..Reply.. Forum 278 Gary Apr 28 at 11:07

John 7:6-7.   6 Then Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

What do you think of His statement in verse 7?   Most of the time in conversations on here I see comments like Jesus never condemned anybody, but other than a few of His followers Jesus seems to say the world is evil.  Just like today.

..Reply.. Forum 277 Gary Apr 28 at 11:01

re: post 76 I guess mood change would require more talk of Jesus and less Easter Bunny.  I am going to throw something out in my next post here for you and Lou.  Lou you can move it to the right spot if I am wrong here.

..Reply.. Forum 276 Chad Apr 28 at 09:36

re: post 75 Gary, why were you saddened by retailers making money at Easter? Is Easter too commercialized? What would improve your mood?

..Reply.. Forum 275 Chad Apr 27 at 13:53

re: post 74 There is much to do during the Easter holidays. Quite a few of the activities are not related to Easter. Thomas Merton said we should be mindful and respectful of others. However, we should carefully consider how we should focus our lives in relation to Easter. Easter can be whatever we want it to be. Many of the local retailers I frequent were closed on Good Friday and Easter Sunday. You may be referring to the marketing of secular Easter products. 

..Reply.. Forum 274 Gary Apr 27 at 13:02

re: post 73 Chad you said "Easter is arguably the most important Christian holiday."  I would say sadly it is one of the most important holidays for retailers also, anything for a buck.

..Reply.. Forum 273 Chad Apr 26 at 23:52

re: post 72 Gary, The Crucifixion and Resurrection is a major focus for most Christians. I understand that you feel that a Belief in the Cross and Resurrection is crucial to being a Christian. You will get no argument from me. Most Churches and a lot of Christians have the Cross prominently displayed. Easter is arguably the most important Christian holiday. On the other hand, I would argue that the meaning of Easter transcends a literal interpretation. 

..Reply.. Forum 272 Lou Apr 25 at 19:17

Gary, A link points to a quote so it belongs on the quote page.

If the link relates to one of the quotes already there then post your link on the same panel.
If it's a new topic then post it on the panel with the oldest dated comment (the left panel in this case.).

Use the chain link icon above.

..Reply.. Forum 268 Gary Apr 25 at 18:41

re: Gary, A link is a quote so it belongs on the quote page.

..Reply.. Forum 267 Lou Apr 25 at 18:02

re: post 65 I agree. And thank you.

..Reply.. Forum 266 Gary Apr 25 at 18:00

re: post 65<

..Reply.. Forum 265 Gary Apr 25 at 17:55

re: post 64 The resurrection is the single most important event in a Christian's life.  If not taken literal, I would suggest that person is not a Christian. 

..Reply.. Forum 264 Chad Apr 23 at 00:12

re: post 63 I focused on the question, which I thought was brilliant BTW, and it hit the nail on the head. I guess I could have said unique and unexpected instead of bizarre It was a one-off event that will likely never be repeated. I didn't mean to limit your thoughts on the mystery. I thought leaving the question open for ongoing contemplation was the way to go. 

..Reply.. Forum 263 Lou Apr 22 at 14:13

re: post 62 Chad, it does not. The Resurrection could be called a bizarre event but they and we, Christians, believe it literally. 
The Gospel writers reminded the growing congregation and us that the disciples all saw, touched, and even ate with the resurrected Jesus. What I am questioning is their reason for repeatedly saying that none of them recognized Him at first sight. You are not addressing that issue, not that I expect you or anyone else, to have an answer but acknowledging that it is an issue in addition to his resurrection. Seeing him was enough, for Him to be mistaken for the gardened is another thing altogether.

..Reply.. Forum 262 Chad Apr 22 at 13:11

re: post 61 A bizarre event indeed. It is to be believed but not literally. It stirs the soul and imagination. These narratives create the energy and flux for action. What are we supposed to make of it? That excellent question has been answered in all sorts of imaginative ways. That question is the cornerstone of the church. It's the gift that keeps on giving. That question has spanned the ages and many generations. In that way, it is a wonderful glue and catalyst. It keeps the narrative alive and changeable. I would suggest we keep asking the question. Does that help clarify my point?

..Reply.. Forum 261 Lou Apr 22 at 12:23

re: post 59 Chad, I get the feeling that your comment is about the Resurrection itself. "a bizarre event? As moderns, we know it was an impossibility. " that phrase is what makes me question what you have in mind.
That feeling is more or less confirmed by your statement "The church was created by your question.' . The Church is a product of the Resurrection and not a product of the fact that they had a hard time recognizing him.

That the Evangelists found it worth mentioning over thirty years later that they all had a hard time recognizing him is what I'm questioning, not the resurrection.

I tend to leave rhetoric out of it.

..Reply.. Forum 260 Chad Apr 22 at 12:22

re: post 59 Lou, I enjoyed your challenge. I think your question is excellent. What are we supposed to make of it? It certainly puts our imagination to work, as I hope the Gospel writers intended. What meaning is to be attached to such a bizarre event? As moderns, we know it was an impossibility. Yet, we know it made things possible that didn't seem possible before. The Gospel writers are telling us through their rhetoric how to remember Christ. Their style of rhetoric makes it sound like they had some privileged information. They didn't, except in retrospect. They were relaying in their own manner and style what already existed as an oral story. They were motivated by your question, Lou. The church was created by your question. I prefer to leave it as an excellent question to be asked from time to time. The mystery is intriguing, but the answers are not.

..Reply.. Forum 259 Chad Apr 22 at 09:31

re: post 58 I liked your challenge, Lou. I think your question; what are we supposed to make of it? It puts our imagination to work which I hope the Gospel writers wanted. What meaning are we to attach to such a bizarre event? As moderns, we know it was an impossibility. Yet, we know it made things possible that didn't seem possible before. The Gospel writers are telling us through their rhetoric how to remember Christ. Their style of rhetoric makes it sound like they had some privileged information. They didn't, except in retrospect. They were relaying in their own manner and style what already existed as an oral story.  They were motivated by your question, Lou. The church was created by your question. I prefer to leave it as an excellent question to be entertained from time to time. The mystery is tantalizing the answers are not.

..Reply.. Forum 258 Lou Apr 22 at 07:52

In John 21:1-14 and many other passages, the Gospel writers state that Jesus was not recognized even by His closest friends.
The tale would work just as well if everyone would have recognized Him right away so why was that fact remembered?
It's not a needed detail so what were the listeners at the time supposed to make of it? What are we supposed to make of it?

Has anyone ever heard a sermon about that?

..Reply.. Forum 257 Chad Apr 18 at 12:48

re: post 56 One of the things the Pope did was listen intently, patiently, and tearfully. This Pope demonstrates compassion and the ability to be empathetic and humble. This may not be a time to be overly cynical of gestures of goodwill. He can not undo what's been done. He can not unwind the clock. He can listen intently to their grievances and grief. In addition to apologizing and asking for forgiveness, he can do whatever he can to hold those responsible to account. Unfortunately, the church here in Canada has reneged on its obligation for the compensation promised. Hopefully, he can have that addressed properly.

..Reply.. Forum 256 Chad Apr 16 at 13:14

re: post 55  I'm glad to have you back.

 One apology is good enough for you and me. We were not directly affected by the Residential School disaster. The Pope's apology is symbolic. It was partially arranged for optics and for political purposes. You will remember that Trudeau visited the Pontiff earlier requesting an apology. Nonetheless, is a  wise initiative. The Pope's apology was sincere and heartfelt. Admittedly It is only a small first step in the right direction. No one, including the Pope, has the right to sit in an ivory tower. He must care about the horrendous hardships that children and their families suffered at the hands of the church. The Pope talking to an official delegation is one thing. For him to come to Canada and talk directly to the people affected is a much more significant undertaking. You are right Gary, not all people will accept an apology no matter how sincere. For some, there will never be any satisfaction from symbolic gestures. However, there will be some that will be helped psychologically and spiritually. Despite all that has been done they still cling to the church and the words of their Pontiff. We can forgive and be forgiven many times.

..Reply.. Forum 255 Chad Apr 16 at 12:29

..Reply.. Forum 254 Gary Apr 15 at 15:52

re: post 53 The way I see it, political figures and  religious leaders can only please about half the people if they are lucky. Most of the time it's a no win situation. The pope coming to Canada will not please everyone. He will have the secular people asking why is he coming here, and the non indigenous people will be asking what good can he do?  How many times can these figures ask for forgivness, 70x7?

Once was enough in my book.  Jesus said once on the cross, forgive them, they know not what they do.


..Reply.. Forum 253 Chad Apr 13 at 13:18

re: post 51 I am being totally unfair to the Archbishop. Justin Welby is just a man that is obviously confined and defined by his position. He is in a precarious situation. His critics are many. They are eagerly awaiting a chance to pounce at every opportunity. The Archbishop like the Royals is an easy target. He doesn't need me to jump on that bandwagon. He is an intelligent person with much to offer. I shouldn't let my working-class mentality get the better of me.

..Reply.. Forum 252 Chad Apr 13 at 11:05

re: post 51 I'm being too critical with the Archbishop. Although he is pinned by circumstances beyond his control he still manages to lead the church in positive ways.

..Reply.. Forum 251 Chad Apr 12 at 11:41

re: post 50 The Archbishop can not speculate on these things. That would bring in doubt and uncertainty. He must always play it safe. He is not one to disturb the waters in a very still pond. He is a preacher, not a participant. He must remain respectable and staid in his station. I believe he has so much more to offer if only he was more comfortable taking risks. 

..Reply.. Forum 250 Chad Apr 11 at 00:03

re: post 49 What was Christ's stance on war. All can think of is that those that live by the sword die by the sword. I'll have to research that.

..Reply.. Forum 249 Chad Apr 10 at 19:42

re: post 48 I can't imagine Jesus picking up a weapon, especially with the intention of killing someone even if they were an enemy. I can imagine that he would be in the hospital wards healing or praying for the dead. I just can't imagine him being a soldier. Is there a lesson there? Gandhi, MLK, and the Dalai Lama didn't take up arms against their foes.

..Reply.. Forum 248 Lou Apr 10 at 15:56

re: post 47 I definitively do not think that is what Jesus had in mind. I didn't get the impression that the archbishop was suggesting anything like a peaceful protest. But I would suggest a peaceful protest in Russia against the war in Ukraine.

..Reply.. Forum 247 Chad Apr 10 at 12:32

re: post 46  The Archbishop of Canterbury's commentary on Palm Sunday was interesting. Looking at the Ukraine conflict. Would it have been better for the Ukrainians not to fight but to peacefully protest the Russian take over of their country? This idea does sit right with me. I'm so used to responding to these issues with a fightback response. It's probably tied to our innate fight/flight mechanism. Although that's what I think Jesus may have had in mind. What are your thoughts?

..Reply.. Forum 246 Chad Apr 10 at 11:08

re: post 45 Lou, I agree with you, I also see the humorous side and sometimes the absurd side of life. Writing these ideas without a preamble or explanation is difficult. These thoughts are best left for in-person encounters where tone and body language can help to convey the message.

..Reply.. Forum 245 Lou Apr 09 at 15:30

re: post 44 I treat this forum as a serious exchange of ideas. I believe what I write, at least tentatively.

..Reply.. Forum 244 Chad Apr 09 at 11:19

re: post 43 I agree. Humour, sarcasm and most emotions don't translate well in the forum. I'll try to remember that.

..Reply.. Forum 243 Lou Apr 07 at 14:46

This is where we should start a new topic since there have been no activities since the third of April.
It's always a good idea to make sure that what the topic is all about is clear.

re: Post 42 I am into Dr. Who and I am curious who the next one will be yet I missed it, distracted maybe!

..Reply.. Forum 242 Chad Apr 03 at 23:25

I was too cryptic. I thought the capital W on who would have been the giveaway. Apparently, there is a new Doctor Who.

..Reply.. Forum 241 Lou Apr 03 at 15:40

re: post 38 What is the mention of a ner doctor in the house referring to?

..Reply.. Forum 240 Lou Apr 03 at 15:39

re: post 39 It makes sense to me that:

What  we have to say belongs on the Forum and 

What the world out there has to say belongs as a quote on the Quote page

Don't you agree that at least it's logical?

..Reply.. Forum 239 Lou Apr 03 at 15:20

Everything we have to say belongs here even what we have to say about a quote ( re Quote 9999). What someone else has to say goes on the Quotes Page.

It makes it easier to follow the topic and to make clear which topic is being referred to.


..Reply.. Forum 238 Chad Apr 02 at 15:44

There seems to be a new doctor in the house. I wonder Who it could be? In another unrelated idea, Ramadan has begun. 

..Reply.. Forum 237 Gary Mar 31 at 07:25

OK Rocky?

..Reply.. Forum 236 Chad Mar 30 at 19:55

Her name was Mcgill but she called herself Lil but everyone knew her as Nancy. 


..Reply.. Forum 235 Chad Mar 29 at 17:43

re: post 34 that' swhat is supposed to happen when trying to post forum a quote to the as you can see has happened when I logged in as Nancy  to log  in as you.

..Reply.. Forum 234 Chad Mar 29 at 17:38

testing the ability to post a link.


..Reply.. Forum 233 Chad Mar 27 at 14:05

I have talked to people who have lived behind the Iron Curtin. What I have found from them is that it is a soulless experience. By forcing submission and threatening violence, the Soviets sought loyalty. KBG agents were everywhere. They were paid for spying and reporting the slightest deviation real or imagined from their own people. Paranoia was the default emotional state. The Soviets took everything of value and gave nothing in return. Ukrainians are familiar with this way of life that kills the soul. They will fight its return to the death. We have a lot to learn from the Ukrainians

..Reply.. Forum 232 Chad Mar 24 at 11:37

The devastation is terrible. No matter how detailed a view we get, it will not contain emotional and physical pain. The grief of personal loss is numbing even at our distance.

..Reply.. Forum 231 Chad Mar 19 at 10:32

I agree, Lou. We should provide what is needed now to prevent further atrocities. We should help those that have already suffered from this aggression.

..Reply.. Forum 230 Lou Mar 18 at 09:27

I wish the whole world would come from witnessing the atrocities being committed in Ukraine and do whatever can be done to help the Ukrainians from donation of money to donation of defensive weapons.

..Reply.. Forum 229 Chad Mar 17 at 23:07

I get that you didn't get where I was coming from. Direct straightforward language is best, especially in this format. I was misleading you by not communicating properly. Please forgive me. 

..Reply.. Forum 228 Chad Mar 17 at 20:08

911 was one thing. The response was ill-conceived and unjustified. This war is just as ridiculous and evil. I will agree with you they are different wars.  

..Reply.. Forum 227 Lou Mar 17 at 17:27

How can blaming the wrong country for something that did happen(911) be compared to attacking a neighbor for something that did not happen!
Was the woman who lost her life as well as that of her unborn child being sarcastic! How about the ones who died in the bombed hospital! 

..Reply.. Forum 226 Chad Mar 17 at 09:35

Cheeky was used sarcastically. Putin was following Bush's lead, before the invasion of Iraq, when he suggested that Ukraine had chemical weapons of mass destruction. I'm surprised Putin doesn't call the Ukrainians illegal combatants as Bush did when he invaded Afghanistan. Putin says he is liberating Ukraine. Yeah, he is one sick puppy alright. Most invaders are.

BTW I agree with everything you said in your post. I like your brother's idea of a birthday present.

..Reply.. Forum 225 Lou Mar 14 at 15:06

re: post 24 It took me a while but:

I think that Putin is more than being " boldly rude, impudent, or disrespectful in usually a playful or appealing way "  which is what the word 'cheeky means and so do all its synonyms

.There is nothing playful about Putin. I tried hard to find the correct work but all I could come up with was enormously psychotic instead of "a little cheeky'.

BTW it's my brother's birthday today and he asked the money be given to help Ukraine in lieu of presents for himself.

..Reply.. Forum 224 Chad Mar 11 at 17:23

On to something completely different, Putin is being a little cheeky. He is charging that Ukraine has chemical weapons capable of mass destruction. So he is using the same line Bush used to attack Saddam Hussein. It's all BS. The US shouldn't complain.    

..Reply.. Forum 223 Chad Mar 11 at 14:35

Matthew 5:20–26

Jesus said, “I tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is a figurative way of saying be as virtuous as you can be. In the same breath, knocking the Scribes and Pharisees. Of course, It is literally impossible to know if you are more virtuous than all the Scribes and Pharisees. Can we decide how high that bar is that we must exceed? Not really. It sounds like something we can go along with even if it is imaginative rhetoric. The message is to be good as you can be.

..Reply.. Forum 222 Chad Mar 10 at 16:54

It reminds me that the Gospel and NT writers literally lived in a different Universe. What they perceived and how they perceived it can't be known. We only have some fragmented pieces of their world and our imagination to create an abstract version of a Universe that never existed. Just thinking about it boggles the mind.

..Reply.. Forum 221 Chad Mar 10 at 15:21

re: post 19  Yeah, that's just me waxing philosophically. I doubt Peter would understand any of what I wrote about his passage.

..Reply.. Forum 220 Lou Mar 10 at 14:57

Gary would you please help me by doing exactly the thing you did when you posted peter 3:10-12 followed by a comment on what happened.

..Reply.. Forum 219 Gary Mar 10 at 14:21

Whatever Chad.

..Reply.. Forum 218 Chad Mar 10 at 12:01

re: post 13

I can see why you might think Peter was predicting nuclear war. He obviously had no idea about nuclear weapons. He wasn't making predictions of future events. He was reiterating what was previously written about his emotionally charged god. The vengeful jealous god of the OT. He was talking about his society's present-day situation. He was echoing all the prophets from the past. They all demanded that the people change their perceptions and actions. They threaten that God will get ya in the most god-awful fashion if you don't. His warning can be put in a modern context. We definitely need to change our ways. Even the privileged whites are starting to feel the impacts of our past and present behavior.

..Reply.. Forum 217 Lou Mar 10 at 11:36

re: post 13 Gary, I need you to repeat exactly what you did when you posted this post, please. "it comes out blue " doesn't help me or you.

..Reply.. Forum 216 Lou Mar 10 at 09:46

Try it again now please and let me know what hhappens.

..Reply.. Forum 215 Gary Mar 10 at 09:43

it comes out blue